[94410] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] mIl'oD veDDIr SuvwI': 7 - Dujeychugh jagh nIv,
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Robyn Stewart)
Thu Aug 16 02:01:11 2012
In-Reply-To: <BAY166-W5689AF8862F37C98393B35AAB50@phx.gbl>
From: Robyn Stewart <robyn@flyingstart.ca>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 23:00:46 -0700
To: Rohan Fenwick - QeS 'utlh <qeslagh@hotmail.com>
Cc: "<tlhingan-hol@kli.org>" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
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On 2012-08-15, at 22:16, Rohan Fenwick - QeS 'utlh <qeslagh@hotmail.com> wro=
te:
> jIghItlhpu', jIjatlh:
> > Warnings: Killing of animals, and some blood.
>=20
> mujang Qov, jatlh:
> > wej yap'a' HoHchaj?
>=20
> tlhInganvaD, ghaytan not yap.
>=20
> jIH:
> > Hatlh luvegh chaH lIghtaHvIS, chaH tlhopDaq=20
> > Ha'DIbaHmey tlha'taH chaH lIghtaHvIS.
>=20
> Qov:
> > I'm having trouble liking this as a sentence. The=20
> > action of the sentence takes place in the area in=20
> > front of them, but in that location they are=20
> > chasing the animals. I think you're trying to use=20
> > chaJ tlhopDaq to modify just the animals. <chaH=20
> > tlhop Ha'DIbaHmey tlha'taH> would work better for me.
>=20
> Makes sense. vIlaj.
>=20
> jIH:
> > HoHtaH chaH 'ej Qaw'taH chaH, Qunpu' vaqtaH=20
> > chaH, yotlh yav lunguvmoH 'ej Ha'DIbaH 'Iwmo'=20
> > luDoqqu'moH chaH. maq 'avtanDIl lubejtaHbogh=20
> > nuvpu', jatlh: =ABQI'tu' SuvwI'na' ghaHchu'!=BB
>=20
> Qov:
> > vI' tobmeH Hujbej mIwvetlh.
>=20
> bIlughchu'! tobmeH, chaq vIHtaHbogh ray' maSlu'.u
>=20
> taH:
> > toy'wI''a'pu' HoHbe' 'e' vItlho' neH.
>=20
> Don't be silly - slaves aren't real people! </cynic>
>=20
> jIH:
> > yotlhvetlh Hoch luvegh chaH 'ej Ha'DIbaHmey=20
> > tlha'lI'. yotlh Dop HopDaq bIQtIqHom lutu';=20
> > bIQtIqHom HeH Sum luvel naghmey; HeH Hop So'=20
> > ngem[1]. tagha' ngemDaq luHaw' Ha'DIbaH; pa'=20
> > tlha'laHbe' 'avtanDIl Sargh roStevan Sargh je.
>=20
> Qov:
> > vaQqu'law' ngemvetlh.
>=20
> Now full of lions and tigers and bears, (oh my) no less.
>=20
> jIQIjpu', jIjatlh:
> > [1] This descriptive bit's awkward and I may=20
> > rewrite it to make it flow better. The source=20
> > text is disjointed here, but I'm not as=20
> > concerned with remaining super-faithful to the=20
> > source as I am about spinning a coherent yarn.
>=20
> Qov:
> > I didn't find it disjointed. There's a stream at=20
> > the end of the field with rocks on the near side=20
> > and impenetrable-by-horses forest on the far=20
> > side. Don't know where else you'd put that information.
>=20
> It's more that it comes out of nowhere and goes back into irrelevance very=
quickly. HeH Hop So' ngem is totally my own addition; the original text doe=
sn't have anything about it and simply says (paraphrasing) "yeah, there was a=
stream at the far side of the plain, and rocks at the edge of the stream. T=
he animals escaped into the forest..." Er, sorry - what forest, and what abo=
ut the stream?
Guess it makes more sense in Klingon.=20
> jIH:
> > toDuj ta'chaj chavta'DI' 'avtanDIl roStevan je,
>=20
> Qov:
> > toDuj? Qobchugh Ha'DIbaHmey HoHpu'bogh, vaj=20
> > toy'wI'pu' toDuj law' law' lIghwI'pu' toDuj law' puS.
>=20
> lughchu'! I may change this to vI', simply because it makes more sense (an=
d also doesn't make 'avtanDIl and roStevan out to be such self-congratulator=
y wankers).
I laughed so hard at that, I had to explain it to my husband.=20
> jIH:
> > Doy'choHpu', 'ach jeQtaH chaH! jatlhchuq Hoch=20
> > cha' =ABjIQapta' jIH'e'!=BB Quchqu'taH chaH 'ej=20
> > qIDchuq, 'utlh toy'wI'pu' loStaHvIS.
>=20
> Qov:
> > tagh wo'mey 'ej luj wo'mey 'ach not choHpu' loDpu'.
>=20
> I think you may have given me a title for a future chapter.
nenchoHbe' loDpu'vam?
> jIH:
> > tugh pawpu' paSbogh toy'wI'pu', 'ej cholDI',=20
> > jatlh 'utlh: =AByIvIt; 'etlhmaj tIbochmoHQo'.=BB
>=20
> Qov:
> > ghIch vImaStaH.
>=20
> meqlIj vIyajchu'. chaq vIchoH, chaq vIchoHQo'. wej jIwuqpu'.
>=20
> (poD latlh)
>=20
> jIH:
> > 'ach yav neH luqIppu'bogh chonnaQmeylIj law''e' DIyIrnISpu'neS.=BB
>=20
> Qov:
> > DIyImISpu'neS? wot yImIS vISovbe'.
>=20
> yImIS'eghmoHQo'. (Sorry, awful joke.) {...yIrnIS...} 'oH: yay 'It ray nay '=
It Say. DaleghHa'law'pu'=20
QongDaqDaq jIH mach vIlo'. DaH. vIyaj.=20
> jIH:
> > 'e' QoyDI' 'utlh, QeHbe'qu', SaHbe'law'; tlhoS Quj QapwI' neH maqlu'law'=
.
>=20
> Qov:
> > Quj QapwI' ghaHbej. chay' pIm?
>=20
> The original Georgian says he seemed not to be worried, as though it was t=
he winner of a game of backgammon that had been announced. (I suspect I may h=
ave misplaced neH here, which wouldn't have helped.) Does tlhoS qa'vaQ Quj Q=
apwI' maqlu'law'pu' neH "it almost seemed that someone had merely announced t=
he winner of a qa'vak game" work better for you?
HIja'
> jIH:
> > Sormey bIng QIbDaq leSmeH pa' ba' chaH cha',
>=20
> Qov:
> > Why not <leSmeH chaH cha', Sormey bIng QIbDaq=20
> > ba'choH> or <Sormey bIng QIbDaq leHmeH ba'choH=20
> > chaH cha'> . I fully understand the desire to add=20
> > some variety to sentence structure, but I'm=20
> > starting to read about a resting chamber under=20
> > some trees, then I have to back up and .. okay I=20
> > can see what's going on here. "They sat in order=20
> > to rest in the shadow under the trees." The way=20
> > it's structured, the sitting is done to=20
> > accomplish resting under the trees. I would be=20
> > more comfortable were the sitting done under the=20
> > trees, in order to rest, and were it not possible=20
> > to misread it as <leSmeH pa'> Also isn't it the=20
> > shadow of the trees, rather than the shadow of=20
> > the trees area underneath?
>=20
> I think "the shadows of the area underneath the tree" - not meaning that t=
he area underneath throws the shadows, merely that the shadows are associate=
d with the area - is a better gloss to show why I think it works,
Yeah, I'll buy that.=20
> but you've rephrased it well with {QIbDaq leSmeH Sormey bIngDaq ba'choH ch=
aH}. vIlo'.
>=20
> > I'm not sure about the legitimacy of chaH cha', but it doesn't confuse m=
e.
>=20
> I'm not hugely sure about it either, but it seems the only logical way to t=
alk about "we two" or "they two", as an apposition like DuraS be'nI'pu' be'e=
tor lurSa' je "the Duras sisters B'Etor and Lursa". It also avoids ugly agr=
eement clashes like *{Hoch Satlho'} and *{maba' cha'}.
lu'.=20
> jIH:
> > qIDtaHvIS 'ej QuchtaHvIS. chaH retlhDaq ghom=20
> > wa'maH cha' toy'wI', yoHwI' matlhwI' je; ghIq=20
> > toy'wI'pu' retlhDaq ghom negh law'qu' 'ej Dech,=20
> > ngem HeHDaq ngechHommey, bIQtIqHommey je bejtaHvIS.
>=20
> Qov:
> > Ha'DibaHmeyvetlh lommey boSnIS vay' ngImchoHpa'.
>=20
> matlhqu' toy'wI''a'pu'! boS chaH net pIHba'. Feudalism, eh?
ghungwI'pu'l=
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<html><head></head><body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div><span class=3D"Apple-style=
-span" style=3D"-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -we=
bkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composit=
ion-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); ">On 2012-08-15, at 22:16, Ro=
han Fenwick - QeS 'utlh <<a href=3D"mailto:qeslagh@hotmail.com">qeslagh@h=
otmail.com</a>> wrote:</span><br></div><div><br></div><div></div><blockqu=
ote type=3D"cite"><div>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">
jIghItlhpu', jIjatlh:<br>> Warnings: Killing of animals, and some blood.<=
br><div><br>mujang Qov, jatlh:<br>> wej yap'a' HoHchaj?<br><br>tlhInganva=
D, ghaytan not yap.<br><br>jIH:<br>> Hatlh luvegh chaH lIghtaHvIS, chaH t=
lhopDaq <br>> Ha'DIbaHmey tlha'taH chaH lIghtaHvIS.<br><br>Qov:<br>> I=
'm having trouble liking this as a sentence. The <br>> action of the sent=
ence takes place in the area in <br>> front of them, but in that location=
they are <br>> chasing the animals. I think you're trying to use <br>>=
; chaJ tlhopDaq to modify just the animals. <chaH <br>> tlhop Ha'DIbaH=
mey tlha'taH> would work better for me.<br><br>Makes sense. vIlaj.<br><br=
>jIH:<br>> HoHtaH chaH 'ej Qaw'taH chaH, Qunpu' vaqtaH <br>> chaH, yot=
lh yav lunguvmoH 'ej Ha'DIbaH 'Iwmo' <br>> luDoqqu'moH chaH. maq 'avtanDI=
l lubejtaHbogh <br>> nuvpu', jatlh: =C2=ABQI'tu' SuvwI'na' ghaHchu'!=C2=BB=
<br><br>Qov:<br>> vI' tobmeH Hujbej mIwvetlh.<br><br>bIlughchu'! tobmeH, c=
haq vIHtaHbogh ray' maSlu'.u<br><br>taH:<br>> toy'wI''a'pu' HoHbe' 'e' vI=
tlho' neH.<br><br>Don't be silly - slaves aren't real people! </cynic>=
<br><br>jIH:<br>> yotlhvetlh Hoch luvegh chaH 'ej Ha'DIbaHmey <br>> tl=
ha'lI'. yotlh Dop HopDaq bIQtIqHom lutu'; <br>> bIQtIqHom HeH Sum luvel n=
aghmey; HeH Hop So' <br>> ngem[1]. tagha' ngemDaq luHaw' Ha'DIbaH; pa' <b=
r>> tlha'laHbe' 'avtanDIl Sargh roStevan Sargh je.<br><br>Qov:<br>> va=
Qqu'law' ngemvetlh.<br><br>Now full of lions and tigers and bears, (oh my) n=
o less.<br><br>jIQIjpu', jIjatlh:<br>> [1] This descriptive bit's awkward=
and I may <br>> rewrite it to make it flow better. The source <br>> t=
ext is disjointed here, but I'm not as <br>> concerned with remaining sup=
er-faithful to the <br>> source as I am about spinning a coherent yarn.<b=
r><br>Qov:<br>> I didn't find it disjointed. There's a stream at <br>>=
the end of the field with rocks on the near side <br>> and impenetrable-=
by-horses forest on the far <br>> side. Don't know where else you'd put t=
hat information.<br><br>It's more that it comes out of nowhere and goes back=
into irrelevance very quickly. HeH Hop So' ngem is totally my own addition;=
the original text doesn't have anything about it and simply says (paraphras=
ing) "yeah, there was a stream at the far side of the plain, and rocks at th=
e edge of the stream. The animals escaped into the forest..." Er, sorry - wh=
at forest, and what about the stream?<br></div></div></div></blockquote><div=
><br></div>Guess it makes more sense in Klingon. <div><br><blockquote t=
ype=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>jIH:<br>> toDuj ta'chaj chavta'DI=
' 'avtanDIl roStevan je,<br><br>Qov:<br>> toDuj? Qobchugh Ha'DIbaHmey Ho=
Hpu'bogh, vaj <br>> toy'wI'pu' toDuj law' law' lIghwI'pu' toDuj law' puS.=
<br><br>lughchu'! I may change this to vI', simply because it makes more sen=
se (and also doesn't make 'avtanDIl and roStevan out to be such self-congrat=
ulatory wankers).<br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>I laughed=
so hard at that, I had to explain it to my husband. </div><div><br><bl=
ockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>jIH:<br>> Doy'choHpu', '=
ach jeQtaH chaH! jatlhchuq Hoch <br>> cha' =C2=ABjIQapta' jIH'e'!=C2=BB Q=
uchqu'taH chaH 'ej <br>> qIDchuq, 'utlh toy'wI'pu' loStaHvIS.<br><br>Qov:=
<br>> tagh wo'mey 'ej luj wo'mey 'ach not choHpu' loDpu'.<br><br>I think y=
ou may have given me a title for a future chapter.<br></div></div></div></bl=
ockquote><div><br></div>nenchoHbe' loDpu'vam?</div><div><br><blockquote type=
=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>jIH:<br>> tugh pawpu' paSbogh toy'wI=
'pu', 'ej cholDI', <br>> jatlh 'utlh: =C2=AByIvIt; 'etlhmaj tIbochmoHQo'.=
=C2=BB<br><br>Qov:<br>> ghIch vImaStaH.<br><br>meqlIj vIyajchu'. chaq vIc=
hoH, chaq vIchoHQo'. wej jIwuqpu'.<br><br>(poD latlh)<br><br>jIH:<br>> 'a=
ch yav neH luqIppu'bogh chonnaQmeylIj law''e' DIyIrnISpu'neS.=C2=BB<br><br>Q=
ov:<br>> DIyImISpu'neS? wot yImIS vISovbe'.<br><br>yImIS'eghmoHQo'. (Sorr=
y, awful joke.) {...yIrnIS...} 'oH: yay 'It ray nay 'It Say. DaleghHa'law'pu=
' <br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>QongDaqDaq jIH mach=
vIlo'. DaH. vIyaj. </div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div>jIH:<br>> 'e' QoyDI' 'utlh, QeHbe'qu', SaHbe'law'; tlhoS Q=
uj QapwI' neH maqlu'law'.<br><br>Qov:<br>> Quj QapwI' ghaHbej. chay' pIm?=
<br><br>The original Georgian says he seemed not to be worried, as though it=
was the winner of a game of backgammon that had been announced. (I suspect I=
may have misplaced neH here, which wouldn't have helped.) Does tlhoS qa'vaQ=
Quj QapwI' maqlu'law'pu' neH "it almost seemed that someone had merely anno=
unced the winner of a qa'vak game" work better for you?<br></div></div></div=
></blockquote><div><br></div>HIja'</div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><=
div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>jIH:<br>> Sormey bIng QIbDaq leSmeH pa' ba' cha=
H cha',<br><br>Qov:<br>> Why not <leSmeH chaH cha', Sormey bIng QIbDaq=
<br>> ba'choH> or <Sormey bIng QIbDaq leHmeH ba'choH <br>> chaH=
cha'> . I fully understand the desire to add <br>> some variety to se=
ntence structure, but I'm <br>> starting to read about a resting chamber u=
nder <br>> some trees, then I have to back up and .. okay I <br>> can=
see what's going on here. "They sat in order <br>> to rest in the shadow=
under the trees." The way <br>> it's structured, the sitting is done t=
o <br>> accomplish resting under the trees. I would be <br>> more comf=
ortable were the sitting done under the <br>> trees, in order to rest, an=
d were it not possible <br>> to misread it as <leSmeH pa'> Also is=
n't it the <br>> shadow of the trees, rather than the shadow of <br>> t=
he trees area underneath?<br><br>I think "the shadows of the area underneath=
the tree" - not meaning that the area underneath throws the shadows, merely=
that the shadows are associated with the area - is a better gloss to show w=
hy I think it works, </div></div></div></blockquote><br>Yeah, I'll buy that.=
</div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>bu=
t you've rephrased it well with {QIbDaq leSmeH Sormey bIngDaq ba'choH chaH}.=
vIlo'.<br><br>> I'm not sure about the legitimacy of chaH cha', but it d=
oesn't confuse me.<br><br>I'm not hugely sure about it either, but it seems t=
he only logical way to talk about "we two" or "they two", as an apposition l=
ike DuraS be'nI'pu' be'etor lurSa' je "the Duras sisters B'Etor and Lursa".=
It also avoids ugly agreement clashes like *{Hoch Satlho'} and *{maba' cha'=
}.<br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>lu'. </div><div><br=
><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>jIH:<br>> qIDtaHvIS=
'ej QuchtaHvIS. chaH retlhDaq ghom <br>> wa'maH cha' toy'wI', yoHwI' mat=
lhwI' je; ghIq <br>> toy'wI'pu' retlhDaq ghom negh law'qu' 'ej Dech, <br>=
> ngem HeHDaq ngechHommey, bIQtIqHommey je bejtaHvIS.<br><br>Qov:<br>>=
Ha'DibaHmeyvetlh lommey boSnIS vay' ngImchoHpa'.<br><br>matlhqu' toy'wI''a'=
pu'! boS chaH net pIHba'. Feudalism, eh?<br></div></div></div></blockquote><=
div><br></div>ghungwI'pu'<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"-webkit-t=
ap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-col=
or: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77,=
128, 180, 0.230469); ">l</span></div></body></html>=
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