[94216] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] nuq bop bom: 'ay' cha'vatlh cha'maH chorgh:
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Robyn Stewart)
Mon Jul 30 18:54:32 2012
In-Reply-To: <CAFK8js2VFpDLowhRfxitZw1v9g+6C3juRqnkXyi_v1Ea4SpZJQ@mail.gmail.com>
From: Robyn Stewart <robyn@flyingstart.ca>
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 15:54:00 -0700
To: ghunchu'wI' 'utlh <qunchuy@alcaco.net>
Cc: Klingon language email discussion forum <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
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On 2012-07-30, at 13:42, "ghunchu'wI' 'utlh" <qunchuy@alcaco.net> wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 12:43 PM, Qov <robyn@flyingstart.ca> wrote:
> 228 maghlu'
> =20
> mIghwI' maghlu''a'? quvwI' maghlu''a'? ghaH maghlu'bogh vISovmeH pe'vIl vI=
laD.
> =20
> =ABDaH=BB, jatlh qoreQ. =ABtlhIH. nuq boghoS?=BB nab Del vajar. jonwI' cho=
Q luDoQmeH lotlhwI'pu', veQ lI' choQDaq vajar QollaH qoreQ
> =20
> **
> I'll accept it either way, but I need to point out that you're using {Qol}=
inconsistently. Until this instance, I think you were consistent in placing=
the traveler as the subject. Here, though, you've treated it the way you do=
{jol}, with the transporter operator as the subject and the person travelin=
g as the object (which is my preference, incidentally).
Since we last considered this topic I have rewritten the entire ghItlh such t=
hat all uses of jol and Qol have rhe transportee(s) as the object.=20
>=20
> 'ej chaHvaD ghu' QIjlaH vajar, Hung HotlhwI'Daq jIHtaHvIS Hota'ro', ghutar=
je. muD rIlDI' vajar,
> =20
> What I get most strongly from {muD rIl} is "blow a raspberry". After caref=
ul thought, I guess you mean "give a thumbs up sign". Either of them could b=
e a reasonable signal.
I forgot that rIl had another meaning. I'll use Sen to evite the ambiguity.=20=
> jonwI' choQDaq lotlhwI' ghom lujol.
>=20
> jol qoreQ 'ar? toH, nIteb vajar jollu' 'e' vIyajchoH. jolpa'Daq ratlh latl=
hpu'.
>=20
DumISmoHpu'mo' vIlISnISlaw'.=20
> nab laj qoreQ. jolpat ravDaq gho' vajar. nISwI' beH, betleH je qemtaH vaja=
r[274],
>=20
> pu' HIchDaj lonpu''a'?
>=20
Do'Ha' nge' qImyal, jonDI'. chaq lIjbe'meJ laDwI' DaH qelnIS vajar.=20
> 'ach lotlhwI'pu' HIvmoHbe'meH DubDajDaq beH qem 'ej ghopDajvo' HuStaH neH b=
etleH. jolpat SeHlaw buS qoreQ 'ej leQmey law' 'uy. tagha' vajar leghlaHghac=
h wewchoHmoH jol 'ej ngoSchoH pa'.
>=20
> ngoSHa'lI' chob chIm. lurghDaj wIvmeH 'IjchoH vajar. ghaH tlhopDaq ghoghme=
y QoylaHmo' DuvchoH. lotlhwI'pu'vaD jatlhrupmeH pur vajar. Huj. may' larghla=
Hbe'. chaq chobvamvaD jaS 'el muD ngeb.
>=20
> pagh chaq chIch chob mujDaq jolta' lotlhbe'bogh qoreQ.
>=20
'e' DaQub'a'? :-) vIqontaHvIS SIbI' loy laDwI' 'e' vIHaj, 'ach SovtaHvIS la=
DwI' Sovbe'taHvIS qaH'eng vajar je, Qap je lut.=20
> vajar retlhDaq pum vay' mach. ngu'laHpa' vajar, jor. wovqu'choHmo' chob, l=
eghlaHbe'. pe'vIl muplaw'mo' muD tlhoS tlhuHlaHbe'.
>=20
> ghaytan QoylaHbe' je.
>=20
> nom chob lu'el negh law'. 'omqu'bej vajar 'ach chIch Hub'eghrupbe'pu'mo' l=
ujchu'.
>=20
> **
> chIch wunmo', chaq <-ta'> qaq law' <-pu'> qaq puS.
>=20
tlhejmo' -be' vISovbejbe'.=20
> vulchoH. mInDu'Daj poSqa'laHDI', joy'wI' pa'Daq ghaHtaH.
>=20
> qab De' 'ej QaQ De'. jonba'ta' qImyal. 'ach Do'qu'chugh 'ej valchugh, pa'D=
aq jollu' 'e' chaw'meH Hung pat ngeplaH.
>=20
> vajar 'emDaq yebDu'Daj tay'moH tlhoy' rarbogh mIrmey Qey'e'. DaSmey tuQbe'=
taH. ngIbDu'Daj rartaH je mIr, 'ej rav rar. 'oy'choH volchaHDu'Daj.
>=20
> **
> I can make {tlhoy'/rav rar mIr} work without stretching the meaning of {ra=
r} to include a "connect *to*" idea, but just barely. Rephrasing it is not n=
ecessary, but it might make it read a little more smoothly.
>=20
vIlaDqa'.=20
> ngaQHa'moHwI' wab Qoy. poSmoH lojmIt 'ej 'el qImyal Sa'. quSDaq ba'choH Sa=
'. vajar bejchoH Sa'. tlhoy' bejtaH vajar 'ach Sa' leghlaH.
>=20
> After having {bej} used this way often in the story, "facing the wall" com=
es very easily to mind. I hope it isn't an abuse of the word's true meaning.=
>=20
I did mean it as "watches the wall.". He's not deigning ti turn and look at h=
er.=20
> jatlh qImyal, =ABqanoHHa'pu', vajar HoD. qIQmeH yaSpu'wI' DaponlaH 'e' vIl=
oybe'. 'et tach boQaw'pu' ja' HungpInwI'. bIHem'a'?=BB
>=20
> tach Qaw'pu' 'e' buSlaw' HungpIn. raSmeyvetlh SaHqu'ba' jay'! ram'a' Heghb=
ogh negh?
>=20
ja'pu' ya Sogh ...
> **
> {ja'} isn't being used the way I expect that it should here: {boQaw'pu'} h=
as the wrong prefix for it to be reported speech.
>=20
I was looking for "reports". But I will change the prefix to accommodate re=
quiring it to be reported speech.=20
> 'et tach SaH'a' Sa'? QaSDaj nawlogh luQaw'ta' je.
>=20
> tu' je vajar. maj.
>=20
chaq De' naQ ghajbe' je qImyal.=20
> jatlh vajar, =ABqIQchoHmeH vIponbe'. qIQrup chaH. 'eb vInob neH.=BB
>=20
> jatlh qImyal, =ABQupwI'pu'vaD 'eb Danobmo' loQ bInoy. pIj nInaD nItoy'pu'b=
ogh beqpu'.=BB
>=20
> noy'a' vajar? machmo' Dugh 'ej pIj Dalmo' Qu'meyDaj, reH vajar toy' beqpu'=
Qup, beqpu''e' lajHa'ta'bogh latlhpu' je. ghojmoHtaH vajar. ghojmoH 'e' tIv=
'ej ghojwI'pu'Daj SaHqu'.
>=20
> maj. ja' vIttlhegh lI' =ABghojwI'pu'lI' tISaH=BB.
>=20
wISovbej, jIH vajar je.=20
> pIj Dujmey potlh toy'choH, vajar toy'pu'DI'. chaHmo' Hem vajar. jatlh =ABv=
Ivuvmo' 'ej vIghongbe'mo' batlh mutoy'.=BB
>=20
> vuvbe' qImyal 'ej ghong, 'e' chuplaw' vajar.
>=20
teHlaH'a'? :-)
> mIwmeyDaj ghojwI'pu'Daj je DelmeH vajar yu'choH qImyal. peghmey bIHbe'mo' j=
atlhqang vajar. 'op mIwmeyDaj Ho' qImyal. 'oy'taH vajar volchaHDu' 'ach ghu'=
vam SIQlaHbej.
>=20
> wej qImyal Dup vIyaj. peghDaj ghojpu' Qa'bar 'e' Sovbe''a'?
>=20
chobDaq nuq ja' DaqwI'? qImyalvaD De' ja'pu''a'? ghobe'. De' 'op nob 'ach q=
Imyal HeSmey tu'DI' moch rI', 'ej lotlhchoH ghaH moch je.=20
jan tu'DI' Qa'bar, joy'meHpa' ghoSmeH meH mejpu' qImyal, 'e' wISov.=20
- Qov
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<html><head></head><body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div><span class=3D"Apple-style=
-span" style=3D"-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -we=
bkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composit=
ion-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); ">On 2012-07-30, at 13:42, "g=
hunchu'wI' 'utlh" <<a href=3D"mailto:qunchuy@alcaco.net">qunchuy@alcaco.n=
et</a>> wrote:</span><br></div><div><br></div><div></div><blockquote type=
=3D"cite"><div><div>On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 12:43 PM, Qov <<a href=3D"mail=
to:robyn@flyingstart.ca">robyn@flyingstart.ca</a>> wrote:</div>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;PAD=
DING-LEFT:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div>228 maghlu'</div></blockquote>
<div> </div>
<div>mIghwI' maghlu''a'? quvwI' maghlu''a'? ghaH maghlu'bogh vISovmeH pe'vIl=
vIlaD.<br> <br></div>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;PAD=
DING-LEFT:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">=C2=ABDaH=C2=BB, jatlh qoreQ. =C2=ABtlh=
IH. nuq boghoS?=C2=BB nab Del vajar. jonwI' choQ luDoQmeH lotlhwI'pu', veQ l=
I' choQDaq vajar QollaH qoreQ</blockquote>
<div> </div>
<div>**<br>I'll accept it either way, but I need to point out that you're us=
ing {Qol} inconsistently. Until this instance, I think you were consistent i=
n placing the traveler as the subject. Here, though, you've treated it the w=
ay you do {jol}, with the transporter operator as the subject and the person=
traveling as the object (which is my preference, incidentally).</div></div>=
</blockquote><div><br></div>Since we last considered this topic I have rewri=
tten the entire ghItlh such that all uses of jol and Qol have rhe transporte=
e(s) as the object. <div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;PAD=
DING-LEFT:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">'ej chaHvaD ghu' QIjlaH vajar, Hung Hot=
lhwI'Daq jIHtaHvIS Hota'ro', ghutar je. muD rIlDI' vajar,</blockquote>
<div> </div>
<div>What I get most strongly from {muD rIl} is "blow a raspberry". After ca=
reful thought, I guess you mean "give a thumbs up sign". Either of them coul=
d be a reasonable signal.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>I forgot th=
at rIl had another meaning. I'll use Sen to evite the ambiguity. <br><b=
lockquote type=3D"cite"><div>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;PAD=
DING-LEFT:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<p>jonwI' choQDaq lotlhwI' ghom lujol.</p></blockquote>
<p>jol qoreQ 'ar? toH, nIteb vajar jollu' 'e' vIyajchoH. jolpa'Daq ratlh lat=
lhpu'.</p></div></blockquote>DumISmoHpu'mo' vIlISnISlaw'. <br><blockquo=
te type=3D"cite"><div>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;PAD=
DING-LEFT:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<p>nab laj qoreQ. jolpat ravDaq gho' vajar. nISwI' beH, betleH je qemtaH vaj=
ar[274],</p></blockquote>
<p>pu' HIchDaj lonpu''a'?</p></div></blockquote><div>Do'Ha' nge' qImyal, jon=
DI'. chaq lIjbe'meJ laDwI' DaH qelnIS vajar. </div><blockquote type=3D"=
cite"><div>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;PAD=
DING-LEFT:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<p>'ach lotlhwI'pu' HIvmoHbe'meH DubDajDaq beH qem 'ej ghopDajvo' HuStaH neH=
betleH. jolpat SeHlaw buS qoreQ 'ej leQmey law' 'uy. tagha' vajar leghlaHgh=
ach wewchoHmoH jol 'ej ngoSchoH pa'.<br>
<br>ngoSHa'lI' chob chIm. lurghDaj wIvmeH 'IjchoH vajar. ghaH tlhopDaq ghogh=
mey QoylaHmo' DuvchoH. lotlhwI'pu'vaD jatlhrupmeH pur vajar. Huj. may' largh=
laHbe'. chaq chobvamvaD jaS 'el muD ngeb.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>pagh chaq chIch chob mujDaq jolta' lotlhbe'bogh qoreQ.</p></div></blockqu=
ote>'e' DaQub'a'? :-) vIqontaHvIS SIbI' loy laDwI' 'e' vIHaj, 'ach Sov=
taHvIS laDwI' Sovbe'taHvIS qaH'eng vajar je, Qap je lut. <br><blockquot=
e type=3D"cite"><div>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;PAD=
DING-LEFT:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<p>vajar retlhDaq pum vay' mach. ngu'laHpa' vajar, jor. wovqu'choHmo' chob, l=
eghlaHbe'. pe'vIl muplaw'mo' muD tlhoS tlhuHlaHbe'.</p></blockquote>
<p>ghaytan QoylaHbe' je.</p>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;PAD=
DING-LEFT:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<p>nom chob lu'el negh law'. 'omqu'bej vajar 'ach chIch Hub'eghrupbe'pu'mo' l=
ujchu'. </p></blockquote>
<p>**<br>chIch wunmo', chaq <-ta'> qaq law' <-pu'> qaq puS.</p><=
/div></blockquote><div>tlhejmo' -be' vISovbejbe'. </div><blockquote typ=
e=3D"cite"><div>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;PAD=
DING-LEFT:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<p>vulchoH. mInDu'Daj poSqa'laHDI', joy'wI' pa'Daq ghaHtaH.</p></blockquote>=
<p>qab De' 'ej QaQ De'. jonba'ta' qImyal. 'ach Do'qu'chugh 'ej valchugh, pa'=
Daq jollu' 'e' chaw'meH Hung pat ngeplaH.</p>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;PAD=
DING-LEFT:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<p>vajar 'emDaq yebDu'Daj tay'moH tlhoy' rarbogh mIrmey Qey'e'. DaSmey tuQbe=
'taH. ngIbDu'Daj rartaH je mIr, 'ej rav rar. 'oy'choH volchaHDu'Daj.</p></bl=
ockquote>
<p>**<br>I can make {tlhoy'/rav rar mIr} work without stretching the meaning=
of {rar} to include a "connect *to*" idea, but just barely. Rephrasing it i=
s not necessary, but it might make it read a little more smoothly.</p></div>=
</blockquote>vIlaDqa'. <br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;PAD=
DING-LEFT:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<p>ngaQHa'moHwI' wab Qoy. poSmoH lojmIt 'ej 'el qImyal Sa'. quSDaq ba'choH S=
a'. vajar bejchoH Sa'. tlhoy' bejtaH vajar 'ach Sa' leghlaH.</p></blockquote=
>
<p>After having {bej} used this way often in the story, "facing the wall" co=
mes very easily to mind. I hope it isn't an abuse of the word's true meaning=
.</p></div></blockquote>I did mean it as "watches the wall.". He's not deign=
ing ti turn and look at her. <br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;PAD=
DING-LEFT:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<p>jatlh qImyal, =C2=ABqanoHHa'pu', vajar HoD. qIQmeH yaSpu'wI' DaponlaH 'e'=
vIloybe'. 'et tach boQaw'pu' ja' HungpInwI'. bIHem'a'?=C2=BB</p></blockquot=
e>
<p>tach Qaw'pu' 'e' buSlaw' HungpIn. raSmeyvetlh SaHqu'ba' jay'! ram'a' Hegh=
bogh negh?</p></div></blockquote>ja'pu' ya Sogh ...<br><blockquote type=3D"c=
ite"><div>
<p>**<br>{ja'} isn't being used the way I expect that it should here: {boQaw=
'pu'} has the wrong prefix for it to be reported speech.</p></div></blockquo=
te>I was looking for "reports". But I will change the prefix to accomm=
odate requiring it to be reported speech. </div><div><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><div>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;PAD=
DING-LEFT:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<p>'et tach SaH'a' Sa'? QaSDaj nawlogh luQaw'ta' je.</p></blockquote>
<p>tu' je vajar. maj.</p></div></blockquote>chaq De' naQ ghajbe' je qImyal.&=
nbsp;<br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;PAD=
DING-LEFT:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<p>jatlh vajar, =C2=ABqIQchoHmeH vIponbe'. qIQrup chaH. 'eb vInob neH.=C2=BB=
<br><br>jatlh qImyal, =C2=ABQupwI'pu'vaD 'eb Danobmo' loQ bInoy. pIj nInaD n=
Itoy'pu'bogh beqpu'.=C2=BB<br><br>noy'a' vajar? machmo' Dugh 'ej pIj Dalmo' Q=
u'meyDaj, reH vajar toy' beqpu' Qup, beqpu''e' lajHa'ta'bogh latlhpu' je. gh=
ojmoHtaH vajar. ghojmoH 'e' tIv 'ej ghojwI'pu'Daj SaHqu'.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>maj. ja' vIttlhegh lI' =C2=ABghojwI'pu'lI' tISaH=C2=BB.</p></div></blockq=
uote>wISovbej, jIH vajar je. <br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;PAD=
DING-LEFT:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<p>pIj Dujmey potlh toy'choH, vajar toy'pu'DI'. chaHmo' Hem vajar. jatlh =C2=
=ABvIvuvmo' 'ej vIghongbe'mo' batlh mutoy'.=C2=BB </p></blockquote>
<p>vuvbe' qImyal 'ej ghong, 'e' chuplaw' vajar.</p></div></blockquote>teHlaH=
'a'? :-)<br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;PAD=
DING-LEFT:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<p>mIwmeyDaj ghojwI'pu'Daj je DelmeH vajar yu'choH qImyal. peghmey bIHbe'mo'=
jatlhqang vajar. 'op mIwmeyDaj Ho' qImyal. 'oy'taH vajar volchaHDu' 'ach gh=
u'vam SIQlaHbej.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>wej qImyal Dup vIyaj. peghDaj ghojpu' Qa'bar 'e' Sovbe''a'?</p></div></bl=
ockquote>chobDaq nuq ja' DaqwI'? qImyalvaD De' ja'pu''a'? ghobe'. &nbs=
p;De' 'op nob 'ach qImyal HeSmey tu'DI' moch rI', 'ej lotlhchoH ghaH moch je=
. <br></div><div><br></div><div>jan tu'DI' Qa'bar, joy'meHpa' ghoSmeH m=
eH mejpu' qImyal, 'e' wISov. </div><div><br></div><div>- Qov</div><div>=
<br></div><div><br></div></body></html>=
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