[93561] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Fwd: Time and Type 7 verb suffixes
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIE3DvGxsZXI=?=)
Thu Jun 7 11:44:00 2012
In-Reply-To: <CE01CF94-3221-4C5D-8325-D2C616F1F846@flyingstart.ca>
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 17:43:35 +0200
From: =?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIE3DvGxsZXI=?= <esperantist@gmail.com>
To: Robyn Stewart <robyn@flyingstart.ca>
Cc: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
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I found two sentences of that kind, but I don't have the source in my list:
vagh SanID ben buDbe' wamwI'pu'. ngugh Ho'Du'chaj lo' chaH, 'ach DaH tajmey
lo'.
=C2=AB5,000 years ago, hunters were not lazy. Then (at that time) they used
their teeth, but now they use knives.=C2=BB
Both sentences above refer to a time in the past and do not use any type 7
suffixe.
But we have for instance:
loSmaH ben jIboghpu'.
=C2=ABI am 40 years old.=C2=BB
Aspect, tense and the interaction of the two (as in English) are really
damn complex. I read the famous book on Tense and Aspect by Bernard Comrie,
but still I feel always unsure about them. I'm waiting for a consense in
this discussion. ;)
- Andr=C3=A9
2012/6/7 Robyn Stewart <robyn@flyingstart.ca>
> I found it interesting that Marc in TKD says that aspectless verbs might
> be translated with simple present or as future, but doesn't say that they
> might be translated as past. I did find one that he did translate with
> past, Hoch nuH Daqel'a' - did you consider every weapon?
>
> I also can't find any canonical sentences of the form "[Timestamp in the
> past] [verb][no aspect suffix]." Evidence against includes, QI'tomerDaq
> Heghpu' Hoch (in the English translation at least, QI'tomer is being used
> as a past event not a place).
>
> narghbe'chugh SuvwI' qa' taH may' is translated "if the warrior's spirit
> has not escaped -- present perfect tense -- even though it's aspectless i=
n
> Klingon. Not sure what the grammatical difference is between that and
> nuHlIj DawIvpu', vaj yISuv.
>
> I started to go through the Skybox cards in search of a sentence like
> that, (they're on qurgh's site) but I kept getting distracted by the rand=
om
> pIqaD and by things like Hub'eghrupHa'.
>
> Does Marc ever use an aspectless verb with a clearly past timestamp?
>
> - Qov
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> *From:* David Trimboli <david@trimboli.name>
> *Date:* 7 June, 2012 6:09:33 PDT
> *To:* tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
> *Subject:* *Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Time and Type 7 verb suffixes*
>
> I've found a couple of phrases in KGT that unquestionably use -pu' as
> perfect tense instead of perfective aspect. One of them is {nIn Hoch
> natlhlu'pu'} "all the fuel has been consumed." Another is {Dujmey law'
> chIjpu'} "has navigated many ships."
>
> I was just skimming, not doing an exhausted check.
>
> --
> SuStel
> http://www.trimboli.name/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
> http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
> http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">I found two sentences of that kind, but I don't have t=
he source in my list:<br><br>vagh SanID ben buDbe' wamwI'pu'. n=
gugh Ho'Du'chaj lo' chaH, 'ach DaH tajmey lo'.<br>=C2=
=AB5,000 years ago, hunters were not lazy. Then (at that time) they used th=
eir teeth, but now they use knives.=C2=BB<br>
<br>Both sentences above refer to a time in the past and do not use any typ=
e 7 suffixe.<br><br>But we have for instance:<br><br>loSmaH ben jIboghpu=
9;.<br>=C2=ABI am 40 years old.=C2=BB<br><br>Aspect, tense and the interact=
ion of the two (as in English) are really damn complex. I read the famous b=
ook on Tense and Aspect by Bernard Comrie, but still I feel always unsure a=
bout them. I'm waiting for a consense in this discussion. ;)<br>
<br>- Andr=C3=A9<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2012/6/7 Robyn Stewart <=
span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca" target=3D"_bla=
nk">robyn@flyingstart.ca</a>></span><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>I found it interesting that Marc in TKD says =
that aspectless verbs might be translated with simple present or as future,=
but doesn't say that they might be translated as past. I did find one =
that he did translate with past, Hoch nuH Daqel'a' - did you consid=
er every weapon?</div>
<div><br></div><div>I also can't find any canonical sentences of the fo=
rm "[Timestamp in the past] [verb][no aspect suffix]." Evidence a=
gainst includes,=C2=A0<span>QI'tomerDaq Heghpu' Hoch (in the Englis=
h translation at least, QI'tomer is being used as a past event not a pl=
ace).</span></div>
<div><span><br></span></div><div><span>narghbe'chugh SuvwI' qa'=
taH may' is translated "if the warrior's spirit has not escap=
ed -- present perfect tense -- even though it's aspectless in Klingon. =
Not sure what the grammatical difference is between that and nuHlIj DawIvpu=
', vaj yISuv.=C2=A0</span></div>
<div><span><br></span></div><div><span>I started to go through the Skybox c=
ards in search of a sentence like that, (they're on qurgh's site) b=
ut I kept getting distracted by the random pIqaD and by things like Hub'=
;eghrupHa'.=C2=A0</span></div>
<div><span><br></span></div><div>Does Marc ever use an aspectless verb with=
a clearly past timestamp?</div><div><br></div><div>- Qov<br><br></div><div=
><br>Begin forwarded message:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>
<b>From:</b> David Trimboli <<a href=3D"mailto:david@trimboli.name" targ=
et=3D"_blank">david@trimboli.name</a>><br><b>Date:</b> 7 June, 2012 6:09=
:33 PDT<br><b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank">tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> <b>Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Time and Type 7 verb suffixes</b><br>=
<br></div></blockquote><div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>I=
9;ve found a couple of phrases in KGT that unquestionably use -pu' as p=
erfect tense instead of perfective aspect. One of them is {nIn Hoch natlhlu=
'pu'} "all the fuel has been consumed." Another is {Dujme=
y law' chIjpu'} "has navigated many ships."</span><br>
<span></span><br><span>I was just skimming, not doing an exhausted check.</=
span><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br><span></span><br><s=
pan>-- </span><br><span>SuStel</span><br><span><a href=3D"http://www.trimbo=
li.name/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.trimboli.name/</a></span><br>
<span></span><br><span>_______________________________________________</spa=
n><br><span>Tlhingan-hol mailing list</span><br><span><a href=3D"mailto:Tlh=
ingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org" target=3D"_blank">Tlhingan-hol@stodi.di=
gitalkingdom.org</a></span><br>
<span><a href=3D"http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-=
hol" target=3D"_blank">http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlh=
ingan-hol</a></span><br></font></span></div></blockquote></div><br>________=
_______________________________________<br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
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