[92627] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] New Canon - King John Shakespeare
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Terrence Donnelly)
Wed Mar 21 16:33:51 2012
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 13:33:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terrence Donnelly <terrence.donnelly@sbcglobal.net>
To: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <FAECD78B-8309-4186-A2C5-9B963E97B2F3@gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
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I seem to recall the examples {Hoch SuvwI'} "every soldier" vs. {SuvwI' Hoc=
h} "the entire soldier".=A0 If {bID} works by analogy, I'd expect {bID paH}=
to mean "half of the skirts."
I go back to the old conception of the N1-N2 construction meaning "of the u=
niversal set of N2, the N1 portion of it/them".=A0 So, {Hoch SuvwI'}, "of t=
he universal set of soldiers, all of them", {bID paH} "of the universal set=
of skirts, half of them".
-- ter'eS
--- On Wed, 3/21/12, lojmIt tI'wI'nuv <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com> wrote:
From: lojmIt tI'wI'nuv <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] New Canon - King John Shakespeare
To: "tlhIngan-Hol" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Date: Wednesday, March 21, 2012, 3:16 PM
There have been a lot of confident pronouncements about how to interpret wh=
en you should use {bID} before or after a noun without much in the way of e=
xplanation citing any kind of canon or rule from Okrand.
We know that of whole numbers {cha' paH} would be "two gowns", while {paH c=
ha'} would be "gown #2" (another way of saying "the second gown"). So, migh=
t {bID paH} refer to half of a gown while {paH bID} might refer to the gown=
's half? (As in gown #0.5)
That second one would be far-fetched, perhaps, but it would be more meaning=
ful with plurals:
bID paHmey - Half of the gowns
paHmey bID - The half-gowns
I don't feel very solid here, and I don't quite understand why others seem =
to be more confident. I'm suspecting that Okrand is just sloppy in how he's=
used {bID} and he hasn't explained what it's supposed to mean, perhaps bec=
ause he hasn't decided what it is supposed to mean.
=0ApItlhlojmIt tI'wI'nuv
=0A=0A
On Mar 21, 2012, at 3:17 PM, Robyn Stewart wrote:
At 11:23 '?????' 3/21/2012, De'vID jonpIn wrote:
Voragh:
> We have two new examples from "TalkNow! Klingon":
>
> =A0yopwaH bID =A0=A0shorts (pants)
> =A0paH bID =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0skirt
Mini-skirt: {paHHom bID} or {paH bIDHom} (or neither)?
paH bID tIqHa'. qIvDu' 'angbogh paH bID. Sa'Hut qatchu'be'bogh paH bID. nI=
Sbe'bogh paH bID vItuQlaHtaH Do qam DujwIj vIlIghtaHvIS.
- Qov=20
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<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;">I seem to recall the examples {Hoch SuvwI'} "=
every soldier" vs. {SuvwI' Hoch} "the entire soldier". If {bID} works=
by analogy, I'd expect {bID paH} to mean "half of the skirts."<br><br>I go=
back to the old conception of the N1-N2 construction meaning "of the unive=
rsal set of N2, the N1 portion of it/them". So, {Hoch SuvwI'}, "of th=
e universal set of soldiers, all of them", {bID paH} "of the universal set =
of skirts, half of them".<br><br>-- ter'eS<br><br>--- On <b>Wed, 3/21/12, l=
ojmIt tI'wI'nuv <i><lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com></i></b> wrote:<br><blo=
ckquote style=3D"border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px;=
padding-left: 5px;"><br>From: lojmIt tI'wI'nuv <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.c=
om><br>Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] New Canon - King John Shakespeare<br>=
To: "tlhIngan-Hol" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org><br>Date: Wednesday, March 2=
1,
2012, 3:16 PM<br><br><div id=3D"yiv566201887"><div>There have been a lot o=
f confident pronouncements about how to interpret when you should use {bID}=
before or after a noun without much in the way of explanation citing any k=
ind of canon or rule from Okrand.<div><br></div><div>We know that of whole =
numbers {cha' paH} would be "two gowns", while {paH cha'} would be "gown #2=
" (another way of saying "the second gown"). So, might {bID paH} refer to h=
alf of a gown while {paH bID} might refer to the gown's half? (As in gown #=
0.5)</div><div><br></div><div>That second one would be far-fetched, perhaps=
, but it would be more meaningful with plurals:</div><div><br></div><div>bI=
D paHmey - Half of the gowns<br><div><br></div><div>paHmey bID - The half-g=
owns</div><div><br></div><div>I don't feel very solid here, and I don't qui=
te understand why others seem to be more confident. I'm suspecting that Okr=
and is just sloppy in how he's used {bID} and he hasn't explained what
it's supposed to mean, perhaps because he hasn't decided what it is suppos=
ed to mean.</div><div><br><div>=0A<span class=3D"yiv566201887Apple-style-sp=
an" style=3D"border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Helvet=
ica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing=
:normal;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;wh=
ite-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0px;font-size:medium;"><div>pItlh</d=
iv><div>lojmIt tI'wI'nuv</div><div><br></div></span><br class=3D"yiv5662018=
87Apple-interchange-newline">=0A</div>=0A<br><div><div>On Mar 21, 2012, at =
3:17 PM, Robyn Stewart wrote:</div><br class=3D"yiv566201887Apple-interchan=
ge-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>At 11:23 '?????' 3/21/2012, De'v=
ID jonpIn wrote:<br><blockquote type=3D"cite">Voragh:<br></blockquote><bloc=
kquote type=3D"cite">> We have two new examples from "TalkNow! Klingon":=
<br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">><br></blockquote><blockquote=
type=3D"cite">> yopwaH bID shorts (pants)<br></blockq=
uote><blockquote type=3D"cite">> paH bID &=
nbsp; skirt<br></blockquote><blockquote type=
=3D"cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">Mini-skirt: {paHHom bI=
D} or {paH bIDHom} (or neither)?<br></blockquote><br> paH bID tIqHa'. qIvDu=
' 'angbogh paH bID. Sa'Hut qatchu'be'bogh paH bID. nISbe'bogh paH bID vItuQ=
laHtaH Do qam DujwIj vIlIghtaHvIS.<br><br>- Qov <br><br>___________________=
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iv><br></div></div></div></div><br>-----Inline Attachment Follows-----<br><=
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