[92607] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] {warjun} {tlher} je
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (lojmIt tI'wI'nuv)
Tue Mar 20 14:53:43 2012
From: lojmIt tI'wI'nuv <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 14:53:21 -0400
In-Reply-To: <CABDLMbWzPC6vsQwJ9tzTTEZ8sHaOsLD=VbptpaWfy=ML74hZyg@mail.gmail.com>
To: tlhIngan Hol email discussion forum <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
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A mono-syllabic verb with a suffix is not a polysyllabic verb. {lo'laH} =
is not, as it appears, the verb {lo'} meaning "use" plus the suffix =
{-laH} "ability". nuH vIlo'laH. "I am able to use the weapon." {lo'laH =
nuH}. "The weapon is useful." It may look and sound alike, but it isn't. =
{lo'laH nuH vIlo'laH.} "I can use a useful weapon." This polysyllabic =
adjectival version of the word was probably a mistake that became canon, =
but now, because it is canon, it's a separate verb.
{HoSghaj} is probably a combination of a noun and verb to form a =
polysyllabic verb. Likely, they were two words used together so often =
they just merged.
Thanks for reminding me about {ghIpDIj}, {nughI'} (I remember when this =
word was invented), and {He'So'}. Also, thank you for making me filter =
through my database. I found several errors.
We might also have to include {nga'chuq}.
Even so, that's six disyllable verbs out of what I count as 908 =
non-derivative verbs. That's 902 monosyllabic verbs. That's a pretty =
strong trend. So, when wanting to make a verb meaning "lumpy" out of =
Clarence Rutherford's name, there's pressure to call it {tlher} and not =
{tlherenSe'}, since that would create the first trisyllable verb in the =
language, and the concept of being lumpy is just not important enough to =
be that exceptional.
pItlh
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
On Mar 19, 2012, at 10:08 PM, Andr=E9 M=FCller wrote:
> Okay, but these two are bimorphemic, consisting of two parts, like =
derivations or compounds. There are much more polysyllabic verbs of that =
kind ({choptaH}, {ghomHa'}, {ghojmoH}, {boqHa''egh} etc., there are =
quite a lot). More interesting are the bisyllabic verbs that cannot be =
derived from monosyllabic morphemes, I found:
>=20
> {ghIpDIj} =3D to court-martial
> {nughI'} =3D to twist one's knuckle into someone's head
> {He'So'} =3D to stink (while the first part means "to smell", the =
second part doesn't logically seem to be derivable from {So'} "to hide")
>=20
> These are all I could find. I might have missed one or two, though.
>=20
> This also reminds me of Thai, a language in which almost all native =
monomorphemic verbs and adjectives are also monosyllabic, while there =
are many monomorphemic polysyllabic nouns. A polysyllabic verb that =
cannot be split into two meaningful components is usually an indicator =
for being borrowed from some other language like Pali, Khmer or =
Sanskrit, or having undergone a phonetic process which splitted a =
consonant cluster up by inserting an epenthetic vowel and thereby =
creating another syllable.
>=20
> - Andr=E9
>=20
> 2012/3/20 lojmIt tI'wI' nuv <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
> Drat! Replied to the sender instead of the list again. Bleah!
>=20
> tlher =3D Clarence because {tlher} is a verb, and except for {HoSghaj} =
and {lo'laH}, I'm pretty sure that all the verbs are monosyllabic. Those =
two verbs are "special". {tlher} is less "special".
>=20
> lojmIt tI'wI' nuv
> lojmIttI7wI7nuv@gmail.com
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Mar 19, 2012, at 6:52 PM, Terrence Donnelly wrote:
>=20
> > HIvqa' veqlargh.
> >
> > Lumpy's sister was named Violet. I don't know if there was a Claire =
on that show.
> >
> > -- ter'eS
> >
> > --- On Mon, 3/19/12, Terrence Donnelly =
<terrence.donnelly@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> >> From: Terrence Donnelly <terrence.donnelly@sbcglobal.net>
> >> Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] {warjun} {tlher} je
> >> To: tlhIngan-Hol@kli.org, "Robyn Stewart" <robyn@flyingstart.ca>
> >> Date: Monday, March 19, 2012, 5:47 PM
> >>
> >>
> >> --- On Mon, 3/19/12, Robyn Stewart <robyn@flyingstart.ca>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>>> Does anyone know the pun behind {tlher}?
> >>>
> >>> I can't remember whether it was the Beaver or his big
> >>> brother, but one of them had a pal named Lumpy.
> >>>
> >>
> >> The Beaver's big brother, Wally, had a friend named Clarence
> >> Rutherford, who was nicknamed Lumpy. His little sister, who
> >> was in Beaver's class, was named Claire.
> >>
> >> -- ter'eS
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> >> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
> >> http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> > Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
> > http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
> http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
> http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><div>A mono-syllabic verb with a suffix is not a polysyllabic verb. =
{lo'laH} is not, as it appears, the verb {lo'} meaning "use" plus the =
suffix {-laH} "ability". nuH vIlo'laH. "I am able to use the weapon." =
{lo'laH nuH}. "The weapon is useful." It may look and sound alike, but =
it isn't. {lo'laH nuH vIlo'laH.} "I can use a useful weapon." This =
polysyllabic adjectival version of the word was probably a mistake that =
became canon, but now, because it is canon, it's a separate =
verb.</div><div><br></div><div>{HoSghaj} is probably a combination of a =
noun and verb to form a polysyllabic verb. Likely, they were two words =
used together so often they just merged.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks =
for reminding me about {ghIpDIj}, {nughI'} (I remember when this word =
was invented), and {He'So'}. Also, thank you for making me filter =
through my database. I found several errors.</div><div><br></div><div>We =
might also have to include {nga'chuq}.</div><div><br></div><div>Even so, =
that's six disyllable verbs out of what I count as 908 non-derivative =
verbs. That's 902 monosyllabic verbs. That's a pretty strong trend. So, =
when wanting to make a verb meaning "lumpy" out of Clarence Rutherford's =
name, there's pressure to call it {tlher} and not {tlherenSe'}, since =
that would create the first trisyllable verb in the language, and the =
concept of being lumpy is just not important enough to be that =
exceptional.</div><div><br></div><div>
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; =
"><div>pItlh</div><div>lojmIt tI'wI'nuv</div><div><br></div></span><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br><div><div>On Mar 19, 2012, at 10:08 PM, Andr=E9 M=FCller =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">Okay, but these two are bimorphemic, =
consisting of two parts, like derivations or compounds. There are much =
more polysyllabic verbs of that kind ({choptaH}, {ghomHa'}, {ghojmoH}, =
{boqHa''egh} etc., there are quite a lot). More interesting are the =
bisyllabic verbs that cannot be derived from monosyllabic morphemes, I =
found:<br>
<br>{ghIpDIj} =3D to court-martial<br>{nughI'} =3D to twist one's =
knuckle into someone's head<br>{He'So'} =3D to stink (while the first =
part means "to smell", the second part doesn't logically seem to be =
derivable from {So'} "to hide")<br>
<br>These are all I could find. I might have missed one or two, =
though.<br><br>This also reminds me of Thai, a language in which almost =
all native monomorphemic verbs and adjectives are also monosyllabic, =
while there are many monomorphemic polysyllabic nouns. A polysyllabic =
verb that cannot be split into two meaningful components is usually an =
indicator for being borrowed from some other language like Pali, Khmer =
or Sanskrit, or having undergone a phonetic process which splitted a =
consonant cluster up by inserting an epenthetic vowel and thereby =
creating another syllable.<br>
<br>- Andr=E9<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2012/3/20 lojmIt tI'wI' =
nuv <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a =
href=3D"mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com">lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com</a>>=
;</span><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Drat! Replied to the sender instead of the list again. Bleah!<br>
<br>
tlher =3D Clarence because {tlher} is a verb, and except for {HoSghaj} =
and {lo'laH}, I'm pretty sure that all the verbs are monosyllabic. Those =
two verbs are "special". {tlher} is less "special".<br>
<br>
lojmIt tI'wI' nuv<br>
<a =
href=3D"mailto:lojmIttI7wI7nuv@gmail.com">lojmIttI7wI7nuv@gmail.com</a><br=
>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Mar 19, 2012, at 6:52 PM, Terrence Donnelly wrote:<br>
<br>
> HIvqa' veqlargh.<br>
><br>
> Lumpy's sister was named Violet. I don't know if there was a Claire =
on that show.<br>
><br>
> -- ter'eS<br>
><br>
> --- On Mon, 3/19/12, Terrence Donnelly <<a =
href=3D"mailto:terrence.donnelly@sbcglobal.net">terrence.donnelly@sbcgloba=
l.net</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
>> From: Terrence Donnelly <<a =
href=3D"mailto:terrence.donnelly@sbcglobal.net">terrence.donnelly@sbcgloba=
l.net</a>><br>
>> Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] {warjun} {tlher} je<br>
>> To: <a =
href=3D"mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@kli.org">tlhIngan-Hol@kli.org</a>, "Robyn =
Stewart" <<a =
href=3D"mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca">robyn@flyingstart.ca</a>><br>
>> Date: Monday, March 19, 2012, 5:47 PM<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> --- On Mon, 3/19/12, Robyn Stewart <<a =
href=3D"mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca">robyn@flyingstart.ca</a>><br>
>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>>>> Does anyone know the pun behind {tlher}?<br>
>>><br>
>>> I can't remember whether it was the Beaver or his big<br>
>>> brother, but one of them had a pal named Lumpy.<br>
>>><br>
>><br>
>> The Beaver's big brother, Wally, had a friend named =
Clarence<br>
>> Rutherford, who was nicknamed Lumpy. His little sister, who<br>
>> was in Beaver's class, was named Claire.<br>
>><br>
>> -- ter'eS<br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
>> <a =
href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org">Tlhingan-hol@stodi.d=
igitalkingdom.org</a><br>
>> <a =
href=3D"http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" =
target=3D"_blank">http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhinga=
n-hol</a><br>
>><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
> <a =
href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org">Tlhingan-hol@stodi.d=
igitalkingdom.org</a><br>
> <a =
href=3D"http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" =
target=3D"_blank">http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhinga=
n-hol</a><br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
<a =
href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org">Tlhingan-hol@stodi.d=
igitalkingdom.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" =
target=3D"_blank">http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhinga=
n-hol</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
_______________________________________________<br>Tlhingan-hol mailing =
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tlhingan-hol<br></blockquote></div><br></body></html>=
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