[92411] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] KLI CanonHom (was: Facebook Translation Project
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Felix Malmenbeck)
Fri Mar 2 18:42:46 2012
From: Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se>
To: =?Windows-1252?Q?Andr=E9_M=FCller?= <esperantist@gmail.com>,
"tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 23:41:45 +0000
In-Reply-To: <CABDLMbVOQthVUe_VOCXJhxPeKrDhy+8bwdxcFXLOkmv59cHgDg@mail.gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
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> To those who want to make lists, I say make them all you want.
>
> Send me copies.
>
> Just don't be surprised if no one else wants to use it.
The problem I have with that is that it's not all that helpful when the goa=
l is to communicate clearly with a general public.
One last argument before I withdraw my suggestion:
The Facebook weekdays will probably be voted on by about 5-10 people.
The first TEDtalk translated into Klingon contains many neologisms only app=
roved by two people.
The Klingon translation of MineCraft has one active translator, and two-thr=
ee who contribute from time to time.
Several lists of neologisms exist on the net, but most of them - while good=
and at times quite useful - are compiled by a single person, or maybe two =
people.
People running these projects may reach out to people in various ways for s=
uggestions, but the feedback they receive will only reflect the views of th=
ose active in that particular forum at that particular forum.
What I'd like is a way to avoid that; to try to devise a system that involv=
es as large a portion of the jatlhwI' community as possible, so that the li=
st actually reflects the speaker base.
I rather like Andr=E9's idea; though I'm too lazy to have done any real wor=
k on it, I've sometimes imagined having a searchable corpus where you can f=
ilter by categories such as "Okrandian canon", "Published KLI work", "Publi=
shed Star Trek work", "Used on-screen" and "Used in casual conversation by =
jatlhwI'".
I think both models could co-exist, and I think both could have separate us=
es.
My fear for a wiki/GoogleDoc is that it will become like ghItlh'a', with on=
ly a few remotely active users and rather little interaction in-between the=
m (which, in my experience using wikis and Google Docs in the workplace, is=
a very common problem). If there were a way to combat that problem (which =
I'm not ruling out), it may serve the purpose I've imagined for my model.
[Not saying that my model magically solves this problem; I've had brief vis=
ions of a first draft of a suggestion for a memo to guide the process of wr=
iting a memo for developing this system, and on the list of "Big problems i=
n need of tackling" there was the point "The process needs to be dry enough=
to be taken seriously, yet engaging enough to encourage widespread partici=
pation at various levels."
Though I still don't know how to resolve that problem*, I think it'd be eas=
ier to get a large number of people involved if the end product had some so=
rt of "semi-official" status; "I went to a workshop during a local qepHom /=
took part in a forum discussion / voted in a poll, and my ideas contribute=
d to an official KLI document."
The details really aren't that important, though (which is part of the reas=
on I've only spoken in fairly broad terms); if another system gets people t=
o take an active role in affecting their language, then I'm all for it.]
That being said, I've used up all of my arguments, and if the views of thos=
e involved in this conversation are even remotely indicative of the jatlhwI=
' community as a whole, then I freely admit that my model would be impossib=
le to implement (at least at this point in time), since consensus lies at i=
ts very core.
Sleeping pill really starting to bite in. Good night, 'IHwI'pu' :)
*I imagine you'd ground it in an online forum with flashy voting tools, com=
plemented by "in the flesh" workshops at qepmey, the election of a preparat=
ory committee that would present their report (preferably both at a physica=
l meeting and online) for feedback before online voting (with some sort of =
minimum number of votes required before it passes.
Not a small bill to fit, I know, which is why I'm curious if anything like =
this would have enough support to be worth the effort.
________________________________
From: Andr=E9 M=FCller [esperantist@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 23:08
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] KLI CanonHom (was: Facebook Translation Project=
[FTP]: weekdays)
I believe the the 21st century computer term list that 'anan naHQun mention=
ed might refer to the humble (and outdated) list in my private Wikipedia us=
er space:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:N-true/List_of_Klingon_computer_terms
I compiled this little list when I was attempting to translate Skype (or so=
me other program) and Wikia (back then still on Wikipedia) into Klingon and=
also when I began trying to translate Facebook, I believe. At least, back =
than (must've been 3 years ago, by now!) I at least referred to this list e=
ver so often. Seems I have compiled the list in 2007.
My personal opinion is indeed that we should not vote on newly coined words=
, but that it could =96 and I'm repeating myself and others here =96 be hel=
pful to at least compile a few list (or one single list) with words that so=
me proficient speakers or writers coined, including words from works such a=
s Hamlet, ghIlghameS, the Daodejing and such.
These lists should have a big disclaimer, a kind of warning that these term=
s are mere suggestions, or not even that... just, that they're a compilatio=
n to show who has used what expression for which non-Klingon term where. Su=
ch a list could and should have annotations which might contain warnings wh=
y a word might not be fitting. I always used "Hogh jaj wa'" for Monday, but=
a list would have many other proposals for this, each with a note or linke=
d explanation, noting that not the whole world starts counting the week on =
Monday, or simple something like "could be mistaken as 1st [of March]" for =
instance... other proposals would then be "jaj wa'", "jaj cha'", "jaj wa'DI=
ch", maybe even something like "monDay" or "manDey" but maybe not simple "M=
onday" (or Montag, lundi etc.).
Steven sometimes includes information like this, mentioning that people on =
the list used this-and-that word before for referring to, say, "computer vi=
rus" or something like that.
This could be a Wiki open (or GoogleDoc? I'm not too familiar with that) to=
everyone, not only members on the list. People who dislike these things co=
uld ignore them and use their own standards. Because of the disclaimer and =
the various possible translation given, no one actually has the right to sa=
y "But we agreed that Monday is jaj wa'!"
I'd see such a list as a mere help for those of us who translate or compose=
texts in Klingon and sometimes struggle for words and concepts. And if I h=
ad a list with a note like "used in 'Hamlet'" or "suggested by De'vID jonpI=
n" I'd rather pick one of those, if I agree with its logic, than making up =
my own words. I might have had a completely different idea but then conclud=
ed that someone had choosen a much better wording before. Also, if I disagr=
ee with someone's suggestion, I could add a little note to the entry in the=
Wiki, saying that the word is ambiguous, too vague or I simply add my own =
term, adding "coined by Andr=E9" (or maybe "used by Andr=E9") and others th=
en might do the same... agree, that my idea is better or write a comment th=
ere or on the discussion page that my suggestions is totally off, or do not=
hing but decide for an alternative.
These things are all discussable and wouldn't seem like elitism or per se. =
I see the danger that such a list might become a "This is how you say it." =
list, but not necessarily so. That list would have not one single, but seve=
ral possible translations for the English lemmata, annotations that lets th=
e reader see the "dangers" and the disclaimer could be formulated wisely.
I'm sure someone has suggested these things before, but I think the usefuln=
ess would outweigh the dangers and "elitism" by far, because it would be ob=
vious to every reader that these are mere suggestions which you are free to=
follow, ignore, annotate or enlarge.
Greetings,
- Andr=E9
2012/3/2 David Trimboli <david@trimboli.name<mailto:david@trimboli.name>>
On 3/2/2012 4:13 PM, Michael Roney, Jr. PKT wrote:
But if I were to suggest writing these words down on a list, we'd
have the same argument that's going on now.
Right. It's the difference between "Aha, I see what you did there!" and "Th=
is is how you say it." And no matter how unofficial you claim a list is, if=
it's endorsed by the list or by the KLI, it WILL become "This is how you s=
ay it."
--
SuStel
http://www.trimboli.name/
_______________________________________________
Tlhingan-hol mailing list
Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org<mailto:Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalking=
dom.org>
http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
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<div style=3D"direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color: #000000;font-size: =
10pt;">> To those who want to make lists, I say make them all you want.<=
br>
><br>
> Send me copies.<br>
><br>
> Just don't be surprised if no one else wants to use it.<br>
<br>
The problem I have with that is that it's not all that helpful when the goa=
l is to communicate clearly with a general public.<br>
<br>
One last argument before I withdraw my suggestion:<br>
<br>
The Facebook weekdays will probably be voted on by about 5-10 people.<br>
The first TEDtalk translated into Klingon contains many neologisms only app=
roved by two people.<br>
The Klingon translation of MineCraft has one active translator, and two-thr=
ee who contribute from time to time.<br>
Several lists of neologisms exist on the net, but most of them - while good=
and at times quite useful - are compiled by a single person, or maybe two =
people.<br>
<br>
People running these projects may reach out to people in various ways for s=
uggestions, but the feedback they receive will only reflect the views of th=
ose active in that particular forum at that particular forum.<br>
<br>
What I'd like is a way to avoid that; to try to devise a system that involv=
es as large a portion of the jatlhwI' community as possible, so that the li=
st actually reflects the speaker base.<br>
<br>
<br>
I rather like Andr=E9's idea; though I'm too lazy to have done any real wor=
k on it, I've sometimes imagined having a searchable corpus where you can f=
ilter by categories such as "Okrandian canon", "Published KL=
I work", "Published Star Trek work", "Used on-screen&qu=
ot;
and "Used in casual conversation by jatlhwI'".<br>
<br>
I think both models could co-exist, and I think both could have separate us=
es.<br>
My fear for a wiki/GoogleDoc is that it will become like ghItlh'a', with on=
ly a few remotely active users and rather little interaction in-between the=
m (which, in my experience using wikis and Google Docs in the workplace, is=
a very common problem). If there
were a way to combat that problem (which I'm not ruling out), it may serve=
the purpose I've imagined for my model.<br>
<br>
[Not saying that my model magically solves this problem; I've had brief vis=
ions of a first draft of a suggestion for a memo to guide the process of wr=
iting a memo for developing this system, and on the list of "Big probl=
ems in need of tackling" there was the
point "The process needs to be dry enough to be taken seriously, yet =
engaging enough to encourage widespread participation at various levels.&qu=
ot;<br>
Though I still don't know how to resolve that problem*, I think it'd be eas=
ier to get a large number of people involved if the end product had some so=
rt of "semi-official" status; "I went to a workshop during a=
local qepHom / took part in a forum discussion
/ voted in a poll, and my ideas contributed to an official KLI document.&q=
uot;<br>
The details really aren't that important, though (which is part of the reas=
on I've only spoken in fairly broad terms); if another system gets people t=
o take an active role in affecting their language, then I'm all for it.]<br=
>
<br>
That being said, I've used up all of my arguments, and if the views of thos=
e involved in this conversation are even remotely indicative of the jatlhwI=
' community as a whole, then I freely admit that my model would be impossib=
le to implement (at least at this
point in time), since consensus lies at its very core.<br>
<br>
Sleeping pill really starting to bite in. Good night, 'IHwI'pu' :)<br>
<br>
<br>
*I imagine you'd ground it in an online forum with flashy voting tools, com=
plemented by "in the flesh" workshops at qepmey, the election of =
a preparatory committee that would present their report (preferably both at=
a physical meeting and online) for feedback
before online voting (with some sort of minimum number of votes required b=
efore it passes.<br>
Not a small bill to fit, I know, which is why I'm curious if anything like =
this would have enough support to be worth the effort.<br>
<br>
<div style=3D"font-family: Times New Roman; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size:=
16px;">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1">
<div style=3D"direction: ltr;" id=3D"divRpF575016"><font color=3D"#000000" =
face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><b>From:</b> Andr=E9 M=FCller [esperantist@gmail=
.com]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, March 02, 2012 23:08<br>
<b>To:</b> tlhingan-hol@kli.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Tlhingan-hol] KLI CanonHom (was: Facebook Translation =
Project [FTP]: weekdays)<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">I believe the the 21st century computer term list that 'an=
an naHQun mentioned might refer to the humble (and outdated) list in my pri=
vate Wikipedia user space:<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:N-true/List_of_Klingon_compute=
r_terms" target=3D"_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:N-true/List_of=
_Klingon_computer_terms</a><br>
<br>
I compiled this little list when I was attempting to translate Skype (or so=
me other program) and Wikia (back then still on Wikipedia) into Klingon and=
also when I began trying to translate Facebook, I believe. At least, back =
than (must've been 3 years ago,
by now!) I at least referred to this list ever so often. Seems I have comp=
iled the list in 2007.<br>
<br>
My personal opinion is indeed that we should not vote on newly coined words=
, but that it could =96 and I'm repeating myself and others here =96 be hel=
pful to at least compile a few list (or one single list) with words that so=
me proficient speakers or writers coined,
including words from works such as Hamlet, ghIlghameS, the Daodejing and s=
uch.<br>
These lists should have a big disclaimer, a kind of warning that these term=
s are mere suggestions, or not even that... just, that they're a compilatio=
n to show who has used what expression for which non-Klingon term where. Su=
ch a list could and should have
annotations which might contain warnings why a word might not be fitting. =
I always used "Hogh jaj wa'" for Monday, but a list would have ma=
ny other proposals for this, each with a note or linked explanation, noting=
that not the whole world starts counting
the week on Monday, or simple something like "could be mistaken as 1s=
t [of March]" for instance... other proposals would then be "jaj =
wa'", "jaj cha'", "jaj wa'DIch", maybe even someth=
ing like "monDay" or "manDey" but maybe not simple &quo=
t;Monday" (or Montag,
lundi etc.).<br>
Steven sometimes includes information like this, mentioning that people on =
the list used this-and-that word before for referring to, say, "comput=
er virus" or something like that.
<br>
<br>
This could be a Wiki open (or GoogleDoc? I'm not too familiar with that) to=
everyone, not only members on the list. People who dislike these things co=
uld ignore them and use their own standards. Because of the disclaimer and =
the various possible translation
given, no one actually has the right to say "But we agreed that Monda=
y is jaj wa'!"<br>
<br>
I'd see such a list as a mere help for those of us who translate or compose=
texts in Klingon and sometimes struggle for words and concepts. And if I h=
ad a list with a note like "used in 'Hamlet'" or "suggested =
by De'vID jonpIn" I'd rather pick one of those,
if I agree with its logic, than making up my own words. I might have had a=
completely different idea but then concluded that someone had choosen a mu=
ch better wording before. Also, if I disagree with someone's suggestion, I =
could add a little note to the entry
in the Wiki, saying that the word is ambiguous, too vague or I simply add =
my own term, adding "coined by Andr=E9" (or maybe "used by A=
ndr=E9") and others then might do the same... agree, that my idea is b=
etter or write a comment there or on the discussion page
that my suggestions is totally off, or do nothing but decide for an altern=
ative.<br>
<br>
These things are all discussable and wouldn't seem like elitism or per se. =
I see the danger that such a list might become a "This is how you say =
it." list, but not necessarily so. That list would have not one single=
, but several possible translations for the
English lemmata, annotations that lets the reader see the "dangers&qu=
ot; and the disclaimer could be formulated wisely.<br>
I'm sure someone has suggested these things before, but I think the usefuln=
ess would outweigh the dangers and "elitism" by far, because it w=
ould be obvious to every reader that these are mere suggestions which you a=
re free to follow, ignore, annotate or enlarge.<br>
<br>
Greetings,<br>
- Andr=E9<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">2012/3/2 David Trimboli <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a=
href=3D"mailto:david@trimboli.name" target=3D"_blank">david@trimboli.name<=
/a>></span><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; borde=
r-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div class=3D"im">On 3/2/2012 4:13 PM, Michael Roney, Jr. PKT wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; borde=
r-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
But if I were to suggest writing these words down on a list, we'd<br>
have the same argument that's going on now.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
Right. It's the difference between "Aha, I see what you did there!&quo=
t; and "This is how you say it." And no matter how unofficial you=
claim a list is, if it's endorsed by the list or by the KLI, it WILL becom=
e "This is how you say it."<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"=
#888888"><br>
<br>
-- <br>
SuStel<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.trimboli.name/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.trimboli=
.name/</a></font></span>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb">
<div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
______________________________<u></u>_________________<br>
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org" target=3D"_blank">=
Tlhingan-hol@stodi.<u></u>digitalkingdom.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" t=
arget=3D"_blank">http://stodi.digitalkingdom.<u></u>org/mailman/listinfo/tl=
hingan-<u></u>hol</a><br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
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