[92410] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] KLI CanonHom (was: Facebook Translation Project
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIE3DvGxsZXI=?=)
Fri Mar 2 17:08:49 2012
In-Reply-To: <4F51396C.4070402@trimboli.name>
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 23:08:26 +0100
From: =?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIE3DvGxsZXI=?= <esperantist@gmail.com>
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
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I believe the the 21st century computer term list that 'anan naHQun
mentioned might refer to the humble (and outdated) list in my private
Wikipedia user space:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:N-true/List_of_Klingon_computer_terms
I compiled this little list when I was attempting to translate Skype (or
some other program) and Wikia (back then still on Wikipedia) into Klingon
and also when I began trying to translate Facebook, I believe. At least,
back than (must've been 3 years ago, by now!) I at least referred to this
list ever so often. Seems I have compiled the list in 2007.
My personal opinion is indeed that we should not vote on newly coined
words, but that it could =E2=80=93 and I'm repeating myself and others here=
=E2=80=93 be
helpful to at least compile a few list (or one single list) with words that
some proficient speakers or writers coined, including words from works such
as Hamlet, ghIlghameS, the Daodejing and such.
These lists should have a big disclaimer, a kind of warning that these
terms are mere suggestions, or not even that... just, that they're a
compilation to show who has used what expression for which non-Klingon term
where. Such a list could and should have annotations which might contain
warnings why a word might not be fitting. I always used "Hogh jaj wa'" for
Monday, but a list would have many other proposals for this, each with a
note or linked explanation, noting that not the whole world starts counting
the week on Monday, or simple something like "could be mistaken as 1st [of
March]" for instance... other proposals would then be "jaj wa'", "jaj
cha'", "jaj wa'DIch", maybe even something like "monDay" or "manDey" but
maybe not simple "Monday" (or Montag, lundi etc.).
Steven sometimes includes information like this, mentioning that people on
the list used this-and-that word before for referring to, say, "computer
virus" or something like that.
This could be a Wiki open (or GoogleDoc? I'm not too familiar with that) to
everyone, not only members on the list. People who dislike these things
could ignore them and use their own standards. Because of the disclaimer
and the various possible translation given, no one actually has the right
to say "But we agreed that Monday is jaj wa'!"
I'd see such a list as a mere help for those of us who translate or compose
texts in Klingon and sometimes struggle for words and concepts. And if I
had a list with a note like "used in 'Hamlet'" or "suggested by De'vID
jonpIn" I'd rather pick one of those, if I agree with its logic, than
making up my own words. I might have had a completely different idea but
then concluded that someone had choosen a much better wording before. Also,
if I disagree with someone's suggestion, I could add a little note to the
entry in the Wiki, saying that the word is ambiguous, too vague or I simply
add my own term, adding "coined by Andr=C3=A9" (or maybe "used by Andr=C3=
=A9") and
others then might do the same... agree, that my idea is better or write a
comment there or on the discussion page that my suggestions is totally off,
or do nothing but decide for an alternative.
These things are all discussable and wouldn't seem like elitism or per se.
I see the danger that such a list might become a "This is how you say it."
list, but not necessarily so. That list would have not one single, but
several possible translations for the English lemmata, annotations that
lets the reader see the "dangers" and the disclaimer could be formulated
wisely.
I'm sure someone has suggested these things before, but I think the
usefulness would outweigh the dangers and "elitism" by far, because it
would be obvious to every reader that these are mere suggestions which you
are free to follow, ignore, annotate or enlarge.
Greetings,
- Andr=C3=A9
2012/3/2 David Trimboli <david@trimboli.name>
> On 3/2/2012 4:13 PM, Michael Roney, Jr. PKT wrote:
>
>> But if I were to suggest writing these words down on a list, we'd
>> have the same argument that's going on now.
>>
>
> Right. It's the difference between "Aha, I see what you did there!" and
> "This is how you say it." And no matter how unofficial you claim a list i=
s,
> if it's endorsed by the list or by the KLI, it WILL become "This is how y=
ou
> say it."
>
> --
> SuStel
> http://www.trimboli.name/
>
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.**digitalkingdom.org<Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom=
.org>
> http://stodi.digitalkingdom.**org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-**hol<http://=
stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">I believe the the 21st century computer term list that =
9;anan naHQun mentioned might refer to the humble (and outdated) list in my=
private Wikipedia user space:<br><br><a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wi=
ki/User:N-true/List_of_Klingon_computer_terms">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki=
/User:N-true/List_of_Klingon_computer_terms</a><br>
<br>I compiled this little list when I was attempting to translate Skype (o=
r some other program) and Wikia (back then still on Wikipedia) into Klingon=
and also when I began trying to translate Facebook, I believe. At least, b=
ack than (must've been 3 years ago, by now!) I at least referred to thi=
s list ever so often. Seems I have compiled the list in 2007.<br>
<br>My personal opinion is indeed that we should not vote on newly coined w=
ords, but that it could =E2=80=93 and I'm repeating myself and others h=
ere =E2=80=93 be helpful to at least compile a few list (or one single list=
) with words that some proficient speakers or writers coined, including wor=
ds from works such as Hamlet, ghIlghameS, the Daodejing and such.<br>
These lists should have a big disclaimer, a kind of warning that these term=
s are mere suggestions, or not even that... just, that they're a compil=
ation to show who has used what expression for which non-Klingon term where=
. Such a list could and should have annotations which might contain warning=
s why a word might not be fitting. I always used "Hogh jaj wa'&quo=
t; for Monday, but a list would have many other proposals for this, each wi=
th a note or linked explanation, noting that not the whole world starts cou=
nting the week on Monday, or simple something like "could be mistaken =
as 1st [of March]" for instance... other proposals would then be "=
;jaj wa'", "jaj cha'", "jaj wa'DIch", =
maybe even something like "monDay" or "manDey" but mayb=
e not simple "Monday" (or Montag, lundi etc.).<br>
Steven sometimes includes information like this, mentioning that people on =
the list used this-and-that word before for referring to, say, "comput=
er virus" or something like that. <br><br>This could be a Wiki open (o=
r GoogleDoc? I'm not too familiar with that) to everyone, not only memb=
ers on the list. People who dislike these things could ignore them and use =
their own standards. Because of the disclaimer and the various possible tra=
nslation given, no one actually has the right to say "But we agreed th=
at Monday is jaj wa'!"<br>
<br>I'd see such a list as a mere help for those of us who translate or=
compose texts in Klingon and sometimes struggle for words and concepts. An=
d if I had a list with a note like "used in 'Hamlet'" or =
"suggested by De'vID jonpIn" I'd rather pick one of those=
, if I agree with its logic, than making up my own words. I might have had =
a completely different idea but then concluded that someone had choosen a m=
uch better wording before. Also, if I disagree with someone's suggestio=
n, I could add a little note to the entry in the Wiki, saying that the word=
is ambiguous, too vague or I simply add my own term, adding "coined b=
y Andr=C3=A9" (or maybe "used by Andr=C3=A9") and others the=
n might do the same... agree, that my idea is better or write a comment the=
re or on the discussion page that my suggestions is totally off, or do noth=
ing but decide for an alternative.<br>
<br>These things are all discussable and wouldn't seem like elitism or =
per se. I see the danger that such a list might become a "This is how =
you say it." list, but not necessarily so. That list would have not on=
e single, but several possible translations for the English lemmata, annota=
tions that lets the reader see the "dangers" and the disclaimer c=
ould be formulated wisely.<br>
I'm sure someone has suggested these things before, but I think the use=
fulness would outweigh the dangers and "elitism" by far, because =
it would be obvious to every reader that these are mere suggestions which y=
ou are free to follow, ignore, annotate or enlarge.<br>
<br>Greetings,<br>- Andr=C3=A9<br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2012/3=
/2 David Trimboli <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:david@trimboli.na=
me">david@trimboli.name</a>></span><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class=3D"im">On 3/2/2012 4:13 PM, Michael Roney, Jr. PKT wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
But if I were to suggest writing these words down on a list, we'd<br>
have the same argument that's going on now.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
Right. It's the difference between "Aha, I see what you did there!=
" and "This is how you say it." And no matter how unofficial=
you claim a list is, if it's endorsed by the list or by the KLI, it WI=
LL become "This is how you say it."<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font c=
olor=3D"#888888"><br>
<br>
-- <br>
SuStel<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.trimboli.name/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.trimboli=
.name/</a></font></span><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
______________________________<u></u>_________________<br>
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org" target=3D"_blank">=
Tlhingan-hol@stodi.<u></u>digitalkingdom.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" t=
arget=3D"_blank">http://stodi.digitalkingdom.<u></u>org/mailman/listinfo/tl=
hingan-<u></u>hol</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
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