[91864] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Newbie question about vIneHbogh construction
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Wiechu)
Thu Jan 26 11:52:37 2012
In-Reply-To: <F52986192E9FE346B0B7EF3D6F98E87711C1694D@EXDB3.ug.kth.se>
From: Wiechu <ddanecki@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 17:51:56 +0100
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
--===============5676354794795470320==
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e0cb4efe2f96ddf13804b77133cf
--e0cb4efe2f96ddf13804b77133cf
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> > tujangpu' 'e' vItlho'.
>
> I think you want tujangta'mo' Satlho'. Otherwise, you're thanking the
> replying, not the repliers.
>
jIyaj
>
>
> > wa' mu'tlheghDaq bogh neH latlh wot je vIlo' 'e' QaQbe' qech.
>
> To the best of y knowledge, QaQ cannot take an object. I recommend
> something like: "[...] vIlo' 'e' vInID 'ach QaQbe' qechvam." ("I tried to
> use [...], but this idea is not good.")
>
How do I know which verbs take objects which don't ?
>
>
> > vIlatlhmeH cha' DuHmey vIlo'laH 'e' vIQub.
>
> Did you mean vIjatlhmeH, by any chance? latlh isn't a verb.
>
HIja'.
>
> > qatlh pong wot lo'taH SuStel, vIyajbe'.
>
> Recommend changing "[...] SuStel, vIyajbe'" to "[...] SuStel. jIyajbe'."
> Otherwise, it looks like you're trying to use a question as an object to
> make a statement, which does not appear to be allowed (you're allowed to
> use questions as objects to pose questions, such as <nuq Datlhutlh DaneH>
> ("What to you want to drink?"), but what you wanted was probably "I don't
> understand why SuStel is using the verb <pong>.", which is a statement and
> therefore not permitted).
>
vISovpu'be'. vIqaw 'e' vInID.
>
> > nuQ SuQub ?
>
> I think you want nuq boQub. ("What do you think?")
>
HIja'. nuQ is object of boQub. vIlIjpu'.
>
> > vIQos vIQaghchugh, taghwI' jIH.
>
> I'd recommend jIQoS jIQaghchugh, as it's unclear what the object of either
> of those verbs would be.
>
jIyaj
>
> ...'a bIQoSmeH meq tu'lu'be'. po'wI' mojmeH vay' wa'DIch taghwI' mojnIS
> 'ej pIghojmoHtaHvIS maghoj je.
>
> Qapla' HaDwI'!
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Wiechu [ddanecki@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 26, 2012 16:48
> *To:* tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Newbie question about vIneHbogh construction
>
> tujangpu' 'e' vItlho'.
>
> SuStel QIn vIlaDpu'DI' QaghwIj vIyaj.
>
> wa' mu'tlheghDaq bogh neH latlh wot je vIlo' 'e' QaQbe' qech.
>
> vIlatlhmeH cha' DuHmey vIlo'laH 'e' vIQub.
>
> 1) Qov DuH: Dochmey vIleghnISbogh.
>
> 2) loghaD DuH: vIleghmeH Dochmey vIneHbogh.
>
> qatlh pong wot lo'taH SuStel, vIyajbe'.
>
> nuQ SuQub ?
>
> vIQos vIQaghchugh, taghwI' jIH.
>
> --
> Wiechu
>
>
> 2012/1/25 Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu>
>
>> FYI we have two examples of {neHbogh} in canon:
>>
>> vay' DaneHbogh yIchargh
>> Conquer what you desire. TKW
>>
>> nuH DaneHbogh yIngu'!
>> Which weapon do you want?
>> ("Identify the weapon that you want!")
>>
>>
>> --
>> Voragh
>> Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
>>
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Philip Newton [mailto:philip.newton@gmail.com]
>> >
>> > On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 23:45, Wiechu <ddanecki@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> I wan to say in Klingon: "Things I want to see" or "Things which I
>> >> want to see"
>> >>
>> >> I came with this: Dochmey vIlegh vIneHbogh.
>> >
>> > Perhaps one way of looking at this is to remember that {Dochmey vIlegh
>> > vIneH} is (as I understand it) two separate sentences: {Dochmey
>> > vIlegh} and {vIneH}. With other verbs than {neH}, you need {'e'},
>> > which makes this clearer - for example, "I see you eat gagh" would be
>> > {qagh DaSop 'e' vIlegh} ("You eat gagh; I see that"). Translating that
>> > as "I see you eat gagh" is idiomatically better English but doesn't
>> > reflect the structure of the Klingon particularly well.
>> >
>> > So what you're wanting is to access something from the first sentence
>> > *out of* the second sentence. I'm not sure whether that works -
>> > {vIneHbogh} would probably either relativise its subject ("The I that
>> > wants; I who want") or its objects, which I guess is {'e'}: "The fact
>> > of 'I see things' that I want".
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > Philip
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
>> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
>> http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>>
>
>
--e0cb4efe2f96ddf13804b77133cf
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div style=
=3D"direction:ltr;font-family:Tahoma;color:#000000;font-size:10pt">> tuj=
angpu' 'e' vItlho'.<br>
<br>
I think you want tujangta'mo' Satlho'. Otherwise, you're th=
anking the replying, not the repliers.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></d=
iv><div>=A0jIyaj</div><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><div style=3D"direction:ltr;font-family:Tahoma;color:#000000;font-size=
:10pt"><div class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
> wa' mu'tlheghDaq bogh neH latlh wot je vIlo' 'e' Q=
aQbe' qech.<br>
<br></div>
To the best of y knowledge, QaQ cannot take an object. I recommend somethin=
g like: "[...] vIlo' 'e' vInID 'ach QaQbe' qechvam=
." ("I tried to use [...], but this idea is not good.")</div=
>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>How do I know which verbs take objec=
ts which don't ?</div><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div=
>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr;font-family:Tahoma;color:#000000;font-size:10pt=
">
<div class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
> vIlatlhmeH cha' DuHmey vIlo'laH 'e' vIQub.<br>
<br></div>
Did you mean vIjatlhmeH, by any chance? latlh isn't a verb.</div></div>=
</blockquote><div><br></div><div>HIja'.</div><div><br></div><blockquote=
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli=
d;padding-left:1ex">
<div><div style=3D"direction:ltr;font-family:Tahoma;color:#000000;font-size=
:10pt"><div class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
> qatlh pong wot lo'taH SuStel, vIyajbe'. <br>
<br></div>
Recommend changing "[...] SuStel, vIyajbe'" to "[...] Su=
Stel. jIyajbe'." Otherwise, it looks like you're trying to use=
a question as an object to make a statement, which does not appear to be a=
llowed (you're allowed to use questions as objects to pose questions,
such as <nuq Datlhutlh DaneH> ("What to you want to drink?"=
;), but what you wanted was probably "I don't understand why SuSte=
l is using the verb <pong>.", which is a statement and therefore=
not permitted).<br>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>vISovpu'be'. vIqaw =
9;e' vInID.</div><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><di=
v style=3D"direction:ltr;font-family:Tahoma;color:#000000;font-size:10pt">
<br>
> nuQ SuQub ?<br>
<br>
I think you want nuq boQub. ("What do you think?")<br></div></div=
></blockquote><div><br></div><div>HIja'. nuQ is object of boQub. vIlIjp=
u'.=A0</div><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><div style=3D"direction:ltr;font-family:Tahoma;color:#000000;font-size=
:10pt">
<br>
> vIQos vIQaghchugh, taghwI' jIH.<br>
<br>
I'd recommend jIQoS jIQaghchugh, as it's unclear what the object of=
either of those verbs would be.<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div=
><div>jIyaj</div><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><div style=3D"direction:ltr;font-family:Tahoma;color:#000000;font-size=
:10pt">
<br>
...'a bIQoSmeH meq tu'lu'be'. po'wI' mojmeH vay'=
; wa'DIch taghwI' mojnIS 'ej pIghojmoHtaHvIS maghoj je.<br>
<br>
Qapla' HaDwI'!<br>
<br>
<div style=3D"font-family:Times New Roman;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px">
<hr>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr"><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Tahoma"><b>Fro=
m:</b> Wiechu [<a href=3D"mailto:ddanecki@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ddan=
ecki@gmail.com</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 26, 2012 16:48<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:tlhingan-hol@kli.org" target=3D"_blank">tlhing=
an-hol@kli.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Newbie question about vIneHbogh construc=
tion<br>
</font><br>
</div><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5">
<div></div>
<div>
<div>tujangpu' 'e' vItlho'.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>SuStel QIn vIlaDpu'DI' QaghwIj vIyaj.=A0</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>wa' mu'tlheghDaq bogh neH latlh wot je vIlo' 'e' Q=
aQbe' qech.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>vIlatlhmeH cha' DuHmey vIlo'laH 'e' vIQub.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>1) Qov DuH: Dochmey vIleghnISbogh.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>2) loghaD DuH: vIleghmeH Dochmey vIneHbogh.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>qatlh pong wot lo'taH SuStel, vIyajbe'.=A0</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>nuQ SuQub ?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>vIQos vIQaghchugh, taghwI' jIH.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span style=3D"border-collapse:collapse;color:rgb(136,136,136)">--<br>
Wiechu</span><br>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">2012/1/25 Steven Boozer <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a=
href=3D"mailto:sboozer@uchicago.edu" target=3D"_blank">sboozer@uchicago.ed=
u</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
FYI we have two examples of {neHbogh} in canon:<br>
<br>
=A0vay' DaneHbogh yIchargh<br>
=A0Conquer what you desire. TKW<br>
<br>
=A0nuH DaneHbogh yIngu'!<br>
=A0Which weapon do you want?<br>
=A0("Identify the weapon that you want!")<br>
<font color=3D"#888888"><br>
<br>
--<br>
Voragh<br>
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons<br>
</font>
<div><br>
<br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: Philip Newton [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:philip.newton@gmail.com"=
target=3D"_blank">philip.newton@gmail.com</a>]<br>
><br>
> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 23:45, Wiechu <<a href=3D"mailto:ddanecki@g=
mail.com" target=3D"_blank">ddanecki@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> I wan to say in Klingon: "Things I want to see" or "=
;Things which I<br>
>> want to see"<br>
>><br>
>> I came with this: Dochmey vIlegh vIneHbogh.<br>
><br>
> Perhaps one way of looking at this is to remember that {Dochmey vIlegh=
<br>
> vIneH} is (as I understand it) two separate sentences: {Dochmey<br>
> vIlegh} and {vIneH}. With other verbs than {neH}, you need {'e'=
;},<br>
> which makes this clearer - for example, "I see you eat gagh"=
would be<br>
> {qagh DaSop 'e' vIlegh} ("You eat gagh; I see that")=
. Translating that<br>
> as "I see you eat gagh" is idiomatically better English but =
doesn't<br>
> reflect the structure of the Klingon particularly well.<br>
><br>
> So what you're wanting is to access something from the first sente=
nce<br>
> *out of* the second sentence. I'm not sure whether that works -<br=
>
> {vIneHbogh} would probably either relativise its subject ("The I =
that<br>
> wants; I who want") or its objects, which I guess is {'e'=
}: "The fact<br>
> of 'I see things' that I want".<br>
><br>
> Cheers,<br>
> Philip<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div></div>
<div>_______________________________________________<br>
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org" target=3D"_blank">=
Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" t=
arget=3D"_blank">http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-=
hol</a><br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote></div><br>
--e0cb4efe2f96ddf13804b77133cf--
--===============5676354794795470320==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
_______________________________________________
Tlhingan-hol mailing list
Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
--===============5676354794795470320==--
