[91347] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] The Dhammapada: A Klingon Translation, verses 1-2
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (De'vID jonpIn)
Wed Dec 21 03:43:35 2011
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 09:43:20 +0100
From: "De'vID jonpIn" <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com>
To: tlhIngan-Hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
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Josh Badgley:
> > Even though "Dhammapada" really means
> > something like "Path of Dhamma", I am calling it "The
> > Buddha's Path of Wisdom" or {jIvHa'wI' Sov'a' He}
Let me first say that I think this is a fantastic idea. I tried many years
ago to do this. I'm not sure if I, or someone else, may have posted
translations of Dhammapada verses to the mailing list. I remember
wrestling with how to express certain terms, which you soon will have to
do, but I don't remember whether that was in private or in public. Too bad
the search functionality for the mailing list is not working. Part of the
reason that the project stalled was that it was very difficult to come up
with terms like "forgiveness" in Klingon, but as we learned recently from
the {paq'batlh}, something like it does exist in Klingon (I think it was
expressed as {qeHHa'}, if someone remembers the page number).
Voragh:
> Well, you've stumbled upon one of the hidden landmines right away WRT
{He} "course, route". Apparently Okrand told SuStel (?) at a {qep'a'} that
{He} cannot be used in a metaphorical or spiritual connotation of "way" or
"path," such as the Way of the Warrior or the Path of Wisdom.
Consequently, Okrand translated the title of _The Klingon Way_ as
{tlhIngan tIgh} and he has used the inscription {tlhIngan tIgh
DaHaDrup'a'?} on books and photos. (FYI the original title of TKW was
{tlhIngan ghobmey paq} "The Klingon Book of Virtues".) I believe 'ISqu'
had the same problem with her _Tao Te Ching, a Klingon Translation_ which
she translated as {pIn'a' qan paQDI'norgh} "The Old Master's Teachings".
>
> More travel-related metaphors are {ghoch} "destination", {jey}
"itinerary", {lurgh} "direction", {qIgh} "shortcut", {pu'jIn} "map" -- but
these may not work any better than {He}.
>
> Other useful words include {ghob} "ethics, virtue", {nugh} "society
(group of people with a shared culture)", {potlh} "consequential thing,
something important", {qolqoS} "essence", {vIlle'} "follower, disciple,
fan, admirer, minion", {vIt} "truth".
I wouldn't worry too much about translating "path" part of the title
literally. While the book is known as the Dhammapada in Pali, the Chinese
version is titled <=E6=B3=95=E5=8F=A5=E7=B6=93>, i.e., "dharma (law) - vers=
es - scripture". This
is because the Pali <pada> has the primary meaning of "foot" or "step" (and
if anyone knows Latin they should recognise the cognate immediately); the
"path" or "verse" (i.e., a "foot of verse") meanings are secondary. In
many Asian languages, the local translation uses the "verse" meaning (<=E5=
=8F=A5>)
rather than the path meaning. I think something like {vIttlhegh} might
work.
The more difficult part of the title is the <Dharma> part. I see you've
chosen to bypass it by calling it "The Buddha's Path of Wisdom" instead,
but the word <Buddha> presents just as many difficulties as the word
<Dharma> (but more on that later). <Dharma> (or <Dhamma> in Pali) is a
hugely overloaded word with zillions of meanings (well, at least four,
according to the traditional dictionary definitions). In the case of the
title of this book, it means something like "virtue" or "ethics", and the
closest correspondence would be to {ghob}, I think. The Chinese chose to
translate it (and the idea of "the Buddha's ethical teachings" in general)
as <=E6=B3=95>, i.e., "law". I'm not sure if the Klingon {chut} would have=
the
same connotations though (i.e., does it only refer to a law in the legal
sense, or can it refer to a "law of the universe" or be used for "the law
of gravity"?). You might find yourself having to use a different word for
each sense of <Dharma>, as the Chinese did.
As for <Buddha>, my inclination would be to leave it untranslated, with a
footnote explaining its meaning. If I had to provide a one-word Klingon
gloss, I might go with something like {vemta'wI'} (then <samma sambuddha>
would be {vemchu'ta'wI'}). {jIvHa'} would also work instead of {vem}. But
I really like the economy of expressing the qualifier <samma sam-> as
{-chu'} in Klingon. :-)
Putting it together, my translation of the title of <Dhammapada> would be
{[buDa lalDan] ghob vIttlheghmey paq}. Of course, that's my suggestion
only, based on my own preferences (and my choices here are obviously
influenced by the Chinese version rather than strictly sticking to just the
Pali). Also, there's no urgency to settle on a final title before
finishing the rest of the book.
I will say more about the translations of the actual verses when I dig my
Pali books out of my boxes later today or tomorrow.
--
De'vID
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<p>Josh Badgley:<br>
> > Ev=
en though "Dhammapada" really means<br>
> > something like "Path of Dhamma", I am calling it "=
The<br>
> > Buddha's Path of Wisdom" or {jIvHa'wI' Sov'a=
' He}</p>
<p>Let me first say that I think this is a fantastic idea. I tried ma=
ny years ago to do this. I'm not sure if I, or someone else, may =
have posted translations of Dhammapada verses to the mailing list. I =
remember wrestling with how to express certain terms, which you soon will h=
ave to do, but I don't remember whether that was in private or in publi=
c. Too bad the search functionality for the mailing list is not worki=
ng. Part of the reason that the project stalled was that it was very =
difficult to come up with terms like "forgiveness" in Klingon, bu=
t as we learned recently from the {paq'batlh}, something like it does e=
xist in Klingon (I think it was expressed as {qeHHa'}, if someone remem=
bers the page number).</p>
<p>Voragh:<br>
> Well, you've stumbled upon one of the hidden landmines right away =
WRT {He} "course, route". Apparently Okrand told SuStel (?)=
at a {qep'a'} that {He} cannot be used in a metaphorical or spirit=
ual connotation of "way" or "path," such as the Way of =
the Warrior or the Path of Wisdom. Consequently, Okrand translated th=
e title of _The Klingon Way_ as {tlhIngan tIgh} and he has used the inscrip=
tion {tlhIngan tIgh DaHaDrup'a'?} on books and photos. (FYI t=
he original title of TKW was {tlhIngan ghobmey paq} "The Klingon Book =
of Virtues".) I believe 'ISqu' had the same problem with=
her _Tao Te Ching, a Klingon Translation_ which she translated as {pIn'=
;a' qan paQDI'norgh} "The Old Master's Teachings".<br=
>
><br>
> More travel-related metaphors are {ghoch} "destination", {je=
y} "itinerary", {lurgh} "direction", {qIgh} "short=
cut", {pu'jIn} "map" -- but these may not work any bette=
r than {He}.<br>
><br>
> Other useful words include {ghob} "ethics, virtue", {nugh} &=
quot;society (group of people with a shared culture)", {potlh} "c=
onsequential thing, something important", {qolqoS} "essence"=
, {vIlle'} "follower, disciple, fan, admirer, minion", {vIt} =
"truth".</p>
<p>I wouldn't worry too much about translating "path" part of=
the title literally. While the book is known as the Dhammapada in Pa=
li, the Chinese version is titled <=AAk=A5y=B8g>, i.e., "dharma =
(law) - verses - scripture". This is because the Pali <pada&g=
t; has the primary meaning of "foot" or "step" (and if =
anyone knows Latin they should recognise the cognate immediately); the &quo=
t;path" or "verse" (i.e., a "foot of verse") meani=
ngs are secondary. In many Asian languages, the local translation use=
s the "verse" meaning (<=A5y>) rather than the path meaning=
. I think something like {vIttlhegh} might work.</p>
<p>The more difficult part of the title is the <Dharma> part. I=
see you've chosen to bypass it by calling it "The Buddha's Pa=
th of Wisdom" instead, but the word <Buddha> presents just as ma=
ny difficulties as the word <Dharma> (but more on that later). =
<Dharma> (or <Dhamma> in Pali) is a hugely overloaded word with=
zillions of meanings (well, at least four, according to the traditional di=
ctionary definitions). In the case of the title of this book, it mean=
s something like "virtue" or "ethics", and the closest =
correspondence would be to {ghob}, I think. The Chinese chose to tran=
slate it (and the idea of "the Buddha's ethical teachings" in=
general) as <=AAk>, i.e., "law". I'm not sure if=
the Klingon {chut} would have the same connotations though (i.e., does it =
only refer to a law in the legal sense, or can it refer to a "law of t=
he universe" or be used for "the law of gravity"?). Yo=
u might find yourself having to use a different word for each sense of <=
Dharma>, as the Chinese did.</p>
<p>As for <Buddha>, my inclination would be to leave it untranslated,=
with a footnote explaining its meaning. If I had to provide a one-wo=
rd Klingon gloss, I might go with something like {vemta'wI'} (then =
<samma sambuddha> would be {vemchu'ta'wI'}). {jIvHa=
'} would also work instead of {vem}. But I really like the econom=
y of expressing the qualifier <samma sam-> as {-chu'} in Klingon.=
:-)</p>
<p>Putting it together, my translation of the title of <Dhammapada> w=
ould be {[buDa lalDan] ghob vIttlheghmey paq}. Of course, that's =
my suggestion only, based on my own preferences (and my choices here are ob=
viously influenced by the Chinese version rather than strictly sticking to =
just the Pali). Also, there's no urgency to settle on a final tit=
le before finishing the rest of the book. </p>
<p>I will say more about the translations of the actual verses when I dig m=
y Pali books out of my boxes later today or tomorrow.</p>
<p>--<br>
De'vID</p>
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