[90464] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Beginner Story: nuq bop bom 'ay''a' wej
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Wiechu)
Fri Nov 4 06:55:24 2011
In-Reply-To: <F52986192E9FE346B0B7EF3D6F98E87711BF96F7@EXDB3.ug.kth.se>
From: Wiechu <ddanecki@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 11:54:38 +0100
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
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That would actually justify use of { lu- } in { pa'Daq tlhInganpu' lutu'lu'
} as prefix is referring to object in this particular case. And that means
Qov didn't make error after all. However the example in TKD says { naDev
puqpu' tu'lu' }. And as { puqpu' } which is an object of that sentence is
plural, shouldn't there be { lu- } attached to { tu'lu' } ?
SanuQchugh jIQoS
--
Sincerely,
Daniel Danecki (Wiechu)
> > It depends on how you understand verb "are". In sentence
> > "There are Klingons in the room" I assumed (perhaps I'm
> > incorrect) that Klingons are the subject because "they are".
>
> Ah, alright; I assumed you were referring to the Klingon sentence.
>
> > However according to TKD {lu-} does not mark a plural,
> > third-person object. It marks plural, third-person subject
> > with singular, third-person subject. Am I right ?
>
> Not when the -lu' suffix is applied; then it marks a
> generic/unknown/unspecified subject and a plural, third-person object.
> I can recommend using the table on this page as a reference:
> www.klingonska.org/dict/tables.html
>
> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Daniel Danecki (Wiechu)
>
>
> 2011/11/4 Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se<mailto:felixm@kth.se>>
> Just want to notify you that I believe you're mixing up the words
> "subject" and "object": The subject is that which does/is something, and
> the object is that to which something is done. The -lu' suffix marks an
> unknown/unspecified/general subject, and when used together with the lu-
> prefix marks a plural, third-person object.
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Wiechu [ddanecki@gmail.com<mailto:ddanecki@gmail.com>]
> Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 07:45
> To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org<mailto:tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
> Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Beginner Story: nuq bop bom 'ay''a' wej
>
> Hi!
>
> I'm sorry if I'm wrong in any way. I'm the beginner who was asking about
> "lutu'lu'".
>
> In my opinion this error comes from treating tu'lu' as english "There is".
> So let's assume it is for a second. To say "there are people in the room",
> it's logical to add lu- at the beginning so the subject was plural as in
> this case the subject would be a person or persons who are in the room...
> However even in this case it isn't 100% correct to use lu- because there's
> no object in "there are klingons in the room" sentence, therefore there's
> no need to lu-, "0" instead should be used for <they> -> <none>. pa'Daq
> tlhInganpu' tu'lu' should be enough.
>
> Now if you look at the tu'lu' in the Klingon way (As explained in TKD),
> tu' means to observe, find. lu' means that there's indefinite subject and
> the object is a person / persons who are being observed.
>
> pa'Daq tlhInganpu' tu'lu' someone observes klingons in the room. If you
> add lu- at the beginnig, the subject is plural so more than one person is
> observing (what doesn't really change anything, besides the fact that
> there's more people who can confirm that klingons are in the room) but
> what's more important with lu- you change object to singular him/her/it.
> And you can't really use it with tlhInganpu' anymore because it's an error.
>
> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Daniel Danecki (Wiechu)
>
>
> 2011/11/4 Robyn Stewart <robyn@flyingstart.ca<mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca
> ><mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca<mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca>>>
> I think I've been convinced by the ubiquity of the so-called error,
> including the example illustrating the rule, that it is not an error, that
> it is the way the language it. It's exactly analogous to the French ce
> n'est pas being used were ce ne sont pas should be, and the same thing
> isn't unknown in English, "There's plenty of them around here." "There's
> five of them." "There's" is just easier to say than "There'r" I guess.
>
> You know how when Germans learn English [hi Germans!] they use rules that
> the two languages once shared and produce verb forms that while not
> actually ungrammatical in English are marked because no native English
> speaker has used them for over a hundred years? I am now convinced that
> lutu'lu' is a hypercorrection like that. I might even stop using it. At
> least in dialogue.
>
>
> We've discussed this in the past. There are a couple of possible
> explanations. One is that it's a fixed expression: just add tu'lu' to mean
> "there is/are." Another is that it's an example of the phenomenon described
> in KGT: "Common Errors: The Case of lu-."
>
> I have a vague notion that lutu'lu' has appeared somewhere, but it's not
> in TKD or KGT, the only materials I have handy and searchable right now.
>
> --
> SuStel
> http://www.trimboli.name/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org<mailto:
> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org><mailto:
> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org<mailto:
> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>>
> http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org<mailto:
> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org><mailto:
> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org<mailto:
> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>>
> http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
>
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<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div>That would actually justify use of { l=
u- } in { pa'Daq tlhInganpu' lutu'lu' } as prefix is referr=
ing to object in this particular case. And that means Qov didn't make e=
rror after all. However the example in TKD says { naDev puqpu' tu'l=
u' }. And as { puqpu' } which is an object of that sentence is plur=
al, shouldn't there be { lu- } attached to { tu'lu' } ?</div>
<div><br></div><div>SanuQchugh jIQoS</div><div><br></div><div><span style=
=3D"border-collapse: collapse; color: rgb(136, 136, 136); ">--<br>Sincerely=
,<br><br>Daniel Danecki (Wiechu)</span></div></div><div><br></div><div>=A0<=
/div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div class=3D"im">> It depends on how yo=
u understand verb "are". In sentence<br>
> "There are Klingons in the room" I assumed (perhaps I'm<=
br>
> incorrect) that Klingons are the subject because "they are".=
<br>
<br>
</div>Ah, alright; I assumed you were referring to the Klingon sentence.<br=
>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
> However according to TKD {lu-} does not mark a plural,<br>
> third-person object. It marks plural, third-person subject<br>
> with singular, third-person subject. Am I right ?<br>
<br>
</div>Not when the -lu' suffix is applied; then it marks a generic/unkn=
own/unspecified subject and a plural, third-person object.</blockquote><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #c=
cc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<br>
I can recommend using the table on this page as a reference: <a href=3D"htt=
p://www.klingonska.org/dict/tables.html" target=3D"_blank">www.klingonska.o=
rg/dict/tables.html</a><br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
--<br>
Sincerely,<br>
<br>
Daniel Danecki (Wiechu)<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>2011/11/4 Felix Malmenbeck <<a href=3D"mailto:felixm@kth.se">felix=
m@kth.se</a><mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:felixm@kth.se">felixm@kth.se</a>&g=
t;><br>
<div class=3D"im">Just want to notify you that I believe you're mixing =
up the words "subject" and "object": The subject is tha=
t which does/is something, and the object is that to which something is don=
e. The -lu' suffix marks an unknown/unspecified/general subject, and wh=
en used together with the lu- prefix marks a plural, third-person object.<b=
r>
<br>
________________________________________<br>
</div>From: Wiechu [<a href=3D"mailto:ddanecki@gmail.com">ddanecki@gmail.co=
m</a><mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ddanecki@gmail.com">ddanecki@gmail.com</a=
>>]<br>
<div class=3D"im">Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 07:45<br>
</div>To: <a href=3D"mailto:tlhingan-hol@kli.org">tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a>&=
lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:tlhingan-hol@kli.org">tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a>&=
gt;<br>
<div class=3D"im">Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Beginner Story: nuq bop bom &=
#39;ay''a' wej<br>
<br>
Hi!<br>
<br>
I'm sorry if I'm wrong in any way. I'm the beginner who was ask=
ing about "lutu'lu'".<br>
<br>
In my opinion this error comes from treating tu'lu' as english &quo=
t;There is". So let's assume it is for a second. To say "ther=
e are people in the room", it's logical to add lu- at the beginnin=
g so the subject was plural as in this case the subject would be a person o=
r persons who are in the room... However even in this case it isn't 100=
% correct to use lu- because there's no object in "there are kling=
ons in the room" sentence, therefore there's no need to lu-, "=
;0" instead should be used for <they> -> <none>. =A0pa&=
#39;Daq tlhInganpu' tu'lu' should be enough.<br>
<br>
Now if you look at the tu'lu' in the Klingon way (As explained in T=
KD), tu' means to observe, find. lu' means that there's indefin=
ite subject and the object is a person / persons who are being observed.<br=
>
<br>
pa'Daq tlhInganpu' tu'lu' someone observes klingons in the =
room. If you add lu- at the beginnig, the subject is plural so more than on=
e person is observing (what doesn't really change anything, besides the=
fact that there's more people who can confirm that klingons are in the=
room) but what's more important with lu- you change object to singular=
him/her/it. And you can't really use it with tlhInganpu' anymore b=
ecause it's an error.<br>
<br>
--<br>
Sincerely,<br>
<br>
Daniel Danecki (Wiechu)<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>2011/11/4 Robyn Stewart <<a href=3D"mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca">r=
obyn@flyingstart.ca</a><mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca">r=
obyn@flyingstart.ca</a>><mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:robyn@flyingstart.c=
a">robyn@flyingstart.ca</a><mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:robyn@flyingstart.c=
a">robyn@flyingstart.ca</a>>>><br>
<div class=3D"im">I think I've been convinced by the ubiquity of the so=
-called error, including the example illustrating the rule, that it is not =
an error, that it is the way the language it. It's exactly analogous to=
the French ce n'est pas being used were ce ne sont pas should be, and =
the same thing isn't unknown in English, "There's plenty of th=
em around here." =A0"There's five of them." =A0"The=
re's" is just easier to say than "There'r" =A0I gues=
s.<br>
<br>
You know how when Germans learn English [hi Germans!] they use rules that t=
he two languages once shared and produce verb forms that while not actually=
ungrammatical in English are marked because no native English speaker has =
used them for over a hundred years? =A0I am now convinced that lutu'lu&=
#39; is a hypercorrection like that. I might even stop using it. At least i=
n dialogue.<br>
<br>
<br>
We've discussed this in the past. There are a couple of possible explan=
ations. One is that it's a fixed expression: just add tu'lu' to=
mean "there is/are." Another is that it's an example of the =
phenomenon described in KGT: "Common Errors: The Case of lu-."<br=
>
<br>
I have a vague notion that lutu'lu' has appeared somewhere, but it&=
#39;s not in TKD or KGT, the only materials I have handy and searchable rig=
ht now.<br>
<br>
--<br>
SuStel<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.trimboli.name/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.trimboli=
.name/</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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to:<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org">Tlhingan-hol@st=
odi.digitalkingdom.org</a><mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@stodi.d=
igitalkingdom.org">Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org</a>>><br>
<div class=3D"im"><a href=3D"http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listin=
fo/tlhingan-hol" target=3D"_blank">http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/=
listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><br>
<br>
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</blockquote></div><br>
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