[90463] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Beginner Story: nuq bop bom 'ay''a' wej
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Wiechu)
Fri Nov 4 06:09:36 2011
In-Reply-To: <F52986192E9FE346B0B7EF3D6F98E87711BF96E6@EXDB3.ug.kth.se>
From: Wiechu <ddanecki@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 11:08:49 +0100
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
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It depends on how you understand verb "are". In sentence "There are
Klingons in the room" I assumed (perhaps I'm incorrect) that Klingons are
the subject because "they are". But that's just the english way of
translating tu'lu', not the actual meaning of those words.
However according to TKD {lu-} does not mark a plural, third-person object.
It marks plural, third-person subject with singular, third-person subject.
Am I right ?
--
Sincerely,
Daniel Danecki (Wiechu)
2011/11/4 Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se>
> Just want to notify you that I believe you're mixing up the words
> "subject" and "object": The subject is that which does/is something, and
> the object is that to which something is done. The -lu' suffix marks an
> unknown/unspecified/general subject, and when used together with the lu-
> prefix marks a plural, third-person object.
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Wiechu [ddanecki@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 07:45
> To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Beginner Story: nuq bop bom 'ay''a' wej
>
> Hi!
>
> I'm sorry if I'm wrong in any way. I'm the beginner who was asking about
> "lutu'lu'".
>
> In my opinion this error comes from treating tu'lu' as english "There is".
> So let's assume it is for a second. To say "there are people in the room",
> it's logical to add lu- at the beginning so the subject was plural as in
> this case the subject would be a person or persons who are in the room...
> However even in this case it isn't 100% correct to use lu- because there's
> no object in "there are klingons in the room" sentence, therefore there's
> no need to lu-, "0" instead should be used for <they> -> <none>. pa'Daq
> tlhInganpu' tu'lu' should be enough.
>
> Now if you look at the tu'lu' in the Klingon way (As explained in TKD),
> tu' means to observe, find. lu' means that there's indefinite subject and
> the object is a person / persons who are being observed.
>
> pa'Daq tlhInganpu' tu'lu' someone observes klingons in the room. If you
> add lu- at the beginnig, the subject is plural so more than one person is
> observing (what doesn't really change anything, besides the fact that
> there's more people who can confirm that klingons are in the room) but
> what's more important with lu- you change object to singular him/her/it.
> And you can't really use it with tlhInganpu' anymore because it's an error.
>
> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Daniel Danecki (Wiechu)
>
>
> 2011/11/4 Robyn Stewart <robyn@flyingstart.ca<mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca
> >>
> I think I've been convinced by the ubiquity of the so-called error,
> including the example illustrating the rule, that it is not an error, that
> it is the way the language it. It's exactly analogous to the French ce
> n'est pas being used were ce ne sont pas should be, and the same thing
> isn't unknown in English, "There's plenty of them around here." "There's
> five of them." "There's" is just easier to say than "There'r" I guess.
>
> You know how when Germans learn English [hi Germans!] they use rules that
> the two languages once shared and produce verb forms that while not
> actually ungrammatical in English are marked because no native English
> speaker has used them for over a hundred years? I am now convinced that
> lutu'lu' is a hypercorrection like that. I might even stop using it. At
> least in dialogue.
>
>
> We've discussed this in the past. There are a couple of possible
> explanations. One is that it's a fixed expression: just add tu'lu' to mean
> "there is/are." Another is that it's an example of the phenomenon described
> in KGT: "Common Errors: The Case of lu-."
>
> I have a vague notion that lutu'lu' has appeared somewhere, but it's not
> in TKD or KGT, the only materials I have handy and searchable right now.
>
> --
> SuStel
> http://www.trimboli.name/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org<mailto:
> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
> http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org<mailto:
> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
> http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
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It depends on how you understand verb "are". In sentence "Th=
ere are Klingons in the room" I assumed (perhaps I'm incorrect) th=
at Klingons are the subject because "they are". But that's ju=
st the english way of translating tu'lu', not the actual meaning of=
those words.<div>
<br></div><div>However=A0according to TKD=A0{lu-} does not mark a plural, t=
hird-person object. It marks plural, third-person subject with singular, th=
ird-person subject. Am I right ?</div><div><br></div><div><span style=3D"bo=
rder-collapse:collapse;color:rgb(136, 136, 136)">--<br>
Sincerely,<br><br>Daniel Danecki (Wiechu)</span><br>
<br></div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2011/11/4 Felix Malmenbeck <s=
pan dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:felixm@kth.se">felixm@kth.se</a>><=
/span><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
Just want to notify you that I believe you're mixing up the words "=
;subject" and "object": The subject is that which does/is so=
mething, and the object is that to which something is done. The -lu' su=
ffix marks an unknown/unspecified/general subject, and when used together w=
ith the lu- prefix marks a plural, third-person object.<br>
<br>
________________________________________<br>
From: Wiechu [<a href=3D"mailto:ddanecki@gmail.com">ddanecki@gmail.com</a>]=
<br>
Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 07:45<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:tlhingan-hol@kli.org">tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Beginner Story: nuq bop bom 'ay''a&=
#39; wej<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
Hi!<br>
<br>
I'm sorry if I'm wrong in any way. I'm the beginner who was ask=
ing about "lutu'lu'".<br>
<br>
In my opinion this error comes from treating tu'lu' as english &quo=
t;There is". So let's assume it is for a second. To say "ther=
e are people in the room", it's logical to add lu- at the beginnin=
g so the subject was plural as in this case the subject would be a person o=
r persons who are in the room... However even in this case it isn't 100=
% correct to use lu- because there's no object in "there are kling=
ons in the room" sentence, therefore there's no need to lu-, "=
;0" instead should be used for <they> -> <none>. =A0pa&=
#39;Daq tlhInganpu' tu'lu' should be enough.<br>
<br>
Now if you look at the tu'lu' in the Klingon way (As explained in T=
KD), tu' means to observe, find. lu' means that there's indefin=
ite subject and the object is a person / persons who are being observed.<br=
>
<br>
pa'Daq tlhInganpu' tu'lu' someone observes klingons in the =
room. If you add lu- at the beginnig, the subject is plural so more than on=
e person is observing (what doesn't really change anything, besides the=
fact that there's more people who can confirm that klingons are in the=
room) but what's more important with lu- you change object to singular=
him/her/it. And you can't really use it with tlhInganpu' anymore b=
ecause it's an error.<br>
<br>
--<br>
Sincerely,<br>
<br>
Daniel Danecki (Wiechu)<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>2011/11/4 Robyn Stewart <<a href=3D"mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca">r=
obyn@flyingstart.ca</a><mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca">r=
obyn@flyingstart.ca</a>>><br>
<div class=3D"im">I think I've been convinced by the ubiquity of the so=
-called error, including the example illustrating the rule, that it is not =
an error, that it is the way the language it. It's exactly analogous to=
the French ce n'est pas being used were ce ne sont pas should be, and =
the same thing isn't unknown in English, "There's plenty of th=
em around here." =A0"There's five of them." =A0"The=
re's" is just easier to say than "There'r" =A0I gues=
s.<br>
<br>
You know how when Germans learn English [hi Germans!] they use rules that t=
he two languages once shared and produce verb forms that while not actually=
ungrammatical in English are marked because no native English speaker has =
used them for over a hundred years? =A0I am now convinced that lutu'lu&=
#39; is a hypercorrection like that. I might even stop using it. At least i=
n dialogue.<br>
<br>
<br>
We've discussed this in the past. There are a couple of possible explan=
ations. One is that it's a fixed expression: just add tu'lu' to=
mean "there is/are." Another is that it's an example of the =
phenomenon described in KGT: "Common Errors: The Case of lu-."<br=
>
<br>
I have a vague notion that lutu'lu' has appeared somewhere, but it&=
#39;s not in TKD or KGT, the only materials I have handy and searchable rig=
ht now.<br>
<br>
--<br>
SuStel<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.trimboli.name/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.trimboli=
.name/</a><br>
<br>
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fo/tlhingan-hol" target=3D"_blank">http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/=
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<br>
<br>
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</blockquote></div><br></div>
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