[89598] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: mu'mey chu': jul
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Robyn Stewart)
Sun Sep 11 21:15:57 2011
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 18:09:59 -0700
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
From: Robyn Stewart <robyn@flyingstart.ca>
In-Reply-To: <4E6A5589.9000500@trimboli.name>
Errors-to: tlhingan-hol-bounce@kli.org
Reply-to: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Seeing as this is archived, I just want to follow this discussion up
by saying that I reread the MO interview in HolQeD 7:4 and I think it
has aligned my opinions more than before with SuStel's. I'm using ja'
and jatlh more, maybe not every single time I quote speech, but more
often than before.
Thanks for the valuable discussion.
At 11:06 09/09/2011, you wrote:
>On 9/9/2011 1:23 PM, Robyn Stewart wrote:
> > At 09:36 09/09/2011, lab SuStel:
> >> Some list members will sometimes put elements of the sentence of saying
> >> on both sides of the sentence that is said, but I believe this is an
> >> error.
> >
> > I don't know--and don't mind--if you're calling me out specifically
> > for this,
>
>No, not you specifically. I don't have any names in mind; I just know
>that I see it from time to time.
>
> > but I want to speak to a distinction between reported
> > speech, for which I totally endorse what you just said, and dialogue
> > in a story.
>
>Is there a difference? We don't have any information on how Klingon
>written stories may differ from spoken stories, though we know that
>Klingons have a strong oral tradition.
>
> > Then when an exchange continues and it is obvious who is speaking, I
> > may omit the verbs of saying, with the quotation marks standing
> in for them.
> >
> > "'utbe'. HIq HIvje' vIlo'qang."
> >
> > "'a tajwIj chu' vItob vIneH."
> >
> > Then, seeing as the quotation marks are already doing the jatlh/ja'
> > for me, I may add more sentences, not intending to act as verbs of
> > saying, just to put more information in.
> >
> > "nuqDaq Daje'?" ghel baHwI'.
> >
> > mIy chIjwI'. "vIje'pu'be'. vISuqmeH HoD vIHoHta'."
>
>I see the transition, and I don't think it's problematical in itself,
>but I do notice that your examples always include a description of the
>manner of speech. I haven't been following the story, so I don't know if
>you've got other kinds of actions in there (e.g., jaghDaq bach HoD.
>"vIqIp'a'?").
>
>It all comes down to the question of whether a written dialog differs in
>any way from reported speech, and we don't have any examples of the former.
>
> > I just wanted to explain that I was not disregarding the rules or
> > thinking I could use anything as a verb of saying. This distinction
> > has precedent in English, as an English speaker would not
> > spontaneously say. "I hate potatoes John said with disgust." But if
> > they were reading a story you wouldn't be surprised to hear it.
>
>You wouldn't say it in English, but you might in Klingon. So far as we
>know all reports of what "John said" are done as direct quotations, and
>it's not odd the way it is in English.
>
> >> The last kind of sentence-as-object construction is the use of {rIntaH}
> >> to indicate finality. I think there's only one example of this, so we
> >> don't know a lot about how it works.
> >
> > I don't think that one is SAO. I don't think the grammar of.
> >
> > <HoH HoHta' chIjwI' rIntaH> is any different than<HoD HoHta'
> chIjwI'. Seybej.>
>
>It is SAO. The very last part of the SAO section of TKD says that
>{rIntaH} used in this way "is another example of the two-verb (or
>two-sentence) construction." Thus, the question becomes, is it {HoD HoH
>chIjwI' rIntaH} or {HoD HoH rIntaH chIjwI'}?
>
>("Sentence as object" is a bit misleading, as not every type of SAO
>actually has a sentence as an object.)
>
>--
>SuStel
>http://www.trimboli.name/
