[89540] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: mu'mey chu': jul
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Robyn Stewart)
Fri Sep 9 13:33:59 2011
Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2011 10:23:38 -0700
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
From: Robyn Stewart <robyn@flyingstart.ca>
In-Reply-To: <4E6A4087.6070000@trimboli.name>
Errors-to: tlhingan-hol-bounce@kli.org
Reply-to: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
At 09:36 09/09/2011, lab SuStel:
Very nice summary of SAO. I don't recall seeing it put together like
that before.
>Some list members will sometimes put elements of the sentence of saying
>on both sides of the sentence that is said, but I believe this is an
>error. (For instance, instead of {reH tlhIngan maH majatlh} "we always
>say, 'we are Klingons,'" it should be {tlhIngan maH reH majatlh} or {reH
>majatlh tlhIngan maH}.) Notice that {jatlh} and {ja'} are the ONLY known
>verbs of saying!
I don't know--and don't mind--if you're calling me out specifically
for this, but I want to speak to a distinction between reported
speech, for which I totally endorse what you just said, and dialogue
in a story. I have a lot of dialogue in my story, so I'm using
regular old quotation marks. Some is presented totally in accordance
with the reported speech rules.
"nuqDaq Hoch tu'lummey jay'?" jatlh baHwI'.
ja' chIjwI' "wej Say'moHta' ne'ma'. vIHoH DaneH'a'?"
Then when an exchange continues and it is obvious who is speaking, I
may omit the verbs of saying, with the quotation marks standing in for them.
"'utbe'. HIq HIvje' vIlo'qang."
"'a tajwIj chu' vItob vIneH."
Then, seeing as the quotation marks are already doing the jatlh/ja'
for me, I may add more sentences, not intending to act as verbs of
saying, just to put more information in.
"nuqDaq Daje'?" ghel baHwI'.
mIy chIjwI'. "vIje'pu'be'. vISuqmeH HoD vIHoHta'."
I was just wondering if you happened to see such a thing, were you
clenching your teeth and looking the other way, or do you find that
works? When a character in the story is reporting speech to another
I aim to adhere strictly to the rules governing verbs of saying.
Hung yaSvaD jatlh baHwI' "HoD vIHoHta' jatlh chIjwI'!"
I'm not sure if I've ever separated elements of the sentence in the manner of
reH <tlhIngan maH> majatlh. If I have written
Hung yaSvaD jatlh baHwI' "jIHvaD <HoD vIHoHta'> jatlh chIjwI'!"
I would first of all be guilty of constructing an unnecessarily
complicated sentence, but secondly accept that it should be:
Hung yaSvaD jatlh baHwI' "<HoD vIHoHta'> jIHvaD jatlh chIjwI'!"
or
Hung yaSvaD jatlh baHwI' "jIHvaD jatlh chIjwI' <HoD vIHoHta'>!"
The latter of which would be better from the point of view of the
baHwI' as it removes the possibility of the Hung yaS killing her in
retaliation before she gets to the attribution.
I just wanted to explain that I was not disregarding the rules or
thinking I could use anything as a verb of saying. This distinction
has precedent in English, as an English speaker would not
spontaneously say. "I hate potatoes John said with disgust." But if
they were reading a story you wouldn't be surprised to hear it.
Anyway, that's my rationalization.
>The last kind of sentence-as-object construction is the use of {rIntaH}
>to indicate finality. I think there's only one example of this, so we
>don't know a lot about how it works.
I don't think that one is SAO. I don't think the grammar of.
<HoH HoHta' chIjwI' rIntaH> is any different than <HoD HoHta' chIjwI'. Seybej.>
Oh and by the way none of those sentences is actually from my story.
>qIDna' 'oH chay' 'e' DaSov?
>how do you know it is a definite joke?
>
>I don't see any point to using {-law'} on {Sov}. {-law'} indicates that
>the speaker is uncertain of the fact of the verb, so unless the speaker
>isn't sure that you know it's a joke, it doesn't belong.
That's how I understood the question. The speaker isn't certain of
the knowledge. On one hand ghunchu'wI' said only Marc knew, but on
the other hand he seemed pretty confident. "How is it that seem to
have this certainty about it being a joke?"
This sort of discussion is one of the things I miss from the days
when we were constantly explaining things to beginners. Thanks for
laying it out so well.
- Qov
