[89536] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: mu'mey chu': jul
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (David Trimboli)
Fri Sep 9 12:44:26 2011
Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2011 12:36:23 -0400
From: David Trimboli <david@trimboli.name>
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
In-Reply-To: <BAY166-W573BF909CC16C83C8782BFAA010@phx.gbl>
Errors-to: tlhingan-hol-bounce@kli.org
Reply-to: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
On 9/9/2011 12:06 PM, Rohan Fenwick - QeS 'utlh wrote:
>
> ghItlhpu' De'vID, jatlh:
>> chay' qIDna' 'oH 'e' DaSovlaw'?
>>
>> (A bit rusty… someone remind me if the<chay'> should go between the<'oH>
>> and the<'e'>.)
>
> Heh. Qov and I have been chucking variations of this question at each other
> for at least a few lut 'ay'Hommey.
>
> TKD (section 5.4) states that adverbs "usually come at the beginning of the
> sentence". A strictly literal interpretation would have chay' where you do.
> Personally I see it more liberally and put adverbs at the beginning of the
> *clause* they modify, which has some canon support:
There is no significant difference between "sentence" and "verbal
clause" in Klingon (not counting exclamations, etc.). Wherever a rule
talks about a sentence, it typically applies equally to verbal clauses
as well.
And the sentence-as-object formations are further distinguished in that
they are one sentence formed from two sentences, so rules for sentences
should apply to both internal sentences as well as to the overall sentence.
We are given four kinds of sentence-as-object construction. The first,
and most common, is the standard kind, used mostly to describe what you
know or see or think about. This is the kind used above. The two
sentences are put one after the other, and the object of the second
sentence is {'e'} or {net} and refers to the first sentence.
The second kind occurs with the verb {neH} "want." It works like the
standard kind, except no pronoun is used in the second sentence. One
example from canon, {reH DIvI' Duj vISuv vIneH} "I've always wanted to
fight a Federation ship" (ST5), puts the adverbial before the entire
construction, even though it modifies the wanting. This might mean that
the entire first sentence itself is directly the object of the second
sentence, rather than putting an adverbial in its place. There is also
an example where someone uses {'e'} with {neH} when referring to someone
else's previous sentence.
The third kind uses the two verbs of saying, {jatlh} and {ja'}. One of
the sentences is about the saying; the other sentence is what is said.
It doesn't matter which sentence comes first; just push them together.
Some list members will sometimes put elements of the sentence of saying
on both sides of the sentence that is said, but I believe this is an
error. (For instance, instead of {reH tlhIngan maH majatlh} "we always
say, 'we are Klingons,'" it should be {tlhIngan maH reH majatlh} or {reH
majatlh tlhIngan maH}.) Notice that {jatlh} and {ja'} are the ONLY known
verbs of saying!
The last kind of sentence-as-object construction is the use of {rIntaH}
to indicate finality. I think there's only one example of this, so we
don't know a lot about how it works.
qIDna' 'oH chay' 'e' DaSov?
how do you know it is a definite joke?
I don't see any point to using {-law'} on {Sov}. {-law'} indicates that
the speaker is uncertain of the fact of the verb, so unless the speaker
isn't sure that you know it's a joke, it doesn't belong. Since this is a
question, I'd still hesitate to use it even if I weren't sure of your
knowledge.
--
SuStel
http://www.trimboli.name/
