[89509] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: chIjwI' tIQ bom: 'ay' wej
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Robyn Stewart)
Thu Sep 8 13:09:25 2011
Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2011 09:00:37 -0700
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
From: Robyn Stewart <robyn@flyingstart.ca>
In-Reply-To: <BAY166-W3303C5A5F2316F2D226B31AA1E0@phx.gbl>
Errors-to: tlhingan-hol-bounce@kli.org
Reply-to: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
At 03:32 08/09/2011, you wrote:
Okay, as usual, first pass will be what I get just reading it as a
Klingon poem. From what you say about the Herghqoq it may be
interesting. Oh and I'm adding snide comments in brackets. Slightly
more stream of consciousness than usual.
[comments from first reading]
{comments after comparing to Colridge's version}
>chIjwI' tIQ bom: 'ay' wej
>
>DaH qaS poH Doy'. QaDchu' Hoch Hugh
The weary time passes. Every throat is parched.
>'ej QaD je Hoch mInDu'.
And everyone's eyes are dry. [Or and "every eye is dry" which is more
poetic, but perhaps less precise]
>Doy'qu' poHvetlh! Doy'qu' poHvetlh!
So weary was that time. [I'm not going to say it twice, Coleridge.
Don't try to make me.]
>QaDqu' je Hoch mInDu',
And everyone's eyes are so dry. [okay Coleridge, we've got that
part, get to the point]
>pay' 'ev tIngDaq jIbej, 'ej pa'
Suddenly I looked to the west, and there [A word for looked/glanced
is on my wishlist]
{okay so the sense of suddenly looking isn't in the original}
>chalDaq vay''e' vItu'.
I saw something in the sky.
>lam 'ay'Hom 'oHlaw'pu', 'ach tugh
It seemed to be a speck of dust, but soon
>chenchoHlaw' 'engHom Sub.
A solid cloud took form [oh yeah man, the drugs are kicking in now]
>vIHchoHtaHqu' 'oH, 'ej tagha'
It started to move (shake? vibrate) and finally
{Okay I should have got the "moved and moved" sense from -taHqu'. I
was reaching too hard.}
>chen DochHey[1] 'e' vIQub.
I thought IT (something/some kind of thing/something I couldn't quite
recognize) took form
[I'm deliberately not reading the footnote yet]
{See, now having read your footnote, it's not so bad based on what
I'm getting from it.}
>< lam 'ay', 'eng mach, DochHey! > jIQub!
"It's a bit of dirt, a small cloud, *something*" I thought.[SUPERMAN!]
[If the footnote is about 'e' Qub versus Qub with quoted thoughts,
I'm totally happy with both. I think they are closer to punctuation
conventions than language.]
>nuchollI'meH He cher,
It charted a course to come up to us.
>bIQ qa' junlaw'taHmeH DochHey,
The apparent thing seemed to evade the water spirits (or "the spirit
of the water")
{yeah, I think it's become a Dochna', but it's still a DujHey. It's
really hard to get "as if" senses isn't it? You do rur or -law' and
it makes perfect sense with the English, but boy do I wander off
sometimes, distracted and confused by the simile.}
>jIm 'oH, 'ej ron, 'ej Der.
It heaved and rolled and yawed. [A little confused here. I wasn't
expecting the DochHey to do these things, but it seems to be the only
possible subject).
{And here's another argument for making it a DujHey. I'd know it was
the subject}
>maHaghlaHbe', majachlaHbe',
We could not laugh, we could not scream ['ej Qochchugh vay' ...]
>'oj Hughmaj, meQ je wuS;
Our throats thirsted, our lips burned.
>maQaDtaHvIS matamtaH maH,
We were dry and silent
>'ej DeSwIj'e' vIchopchoHtaH,
And [what?!] I started to gnaw on my arm. [Hey Coleridge, hand and
arm injuries are my schtick, back off].
{The reason for the arm biting is absent in the Klingon. It's pretty
awesome though. I'd love if you could make that clear.}
>< vo'wI'! > jIjatlh. jIchuS.
The sails! [from context, or possibly oars!] I said loudly.
{I guess "I managed to make a sound" is closer to the mark than
"loudly". As "sail" is, what's the word, metonym? anophor?
representing the whole boat, perhaps having the protagonist say
"DujHey" instead of vo'wI' would help. It looks like you might have
some syllables to help make that clear.}
>'oj HughDu'chaj, qIj wuSDu'chaj,
Their throats thirsted and their lips were black. [eww-- and why the
change from first to third person plural?]
{I see I totally missed that "they" was the same people as maH, minus one}
>poS Hoch nuj; < toH! > jIjach:
Every mouth was open. "Lo!" I cried. [It's kind of fun deciding how
to translate the exclamations. Kind of the opposite of your task.]
>jIjachDI' jIH, latlh'e' pay' pur,
While I cried out, another gasped [OH thank you! I had to look that
one up. I didn't know we had it! Brief delay while I search my story
for occurences of rechHa' to correct ...]
>tlhutlhqu'law'bogh nuvpu''e' rur;
They/it resembled quenched people [what?]
[Maybe resembled people who drink too much, but that needs a HIq or a
chech in it if I'm not to interpret it as relating to their lack of bIQ.]
They were like people who overdrank.
[Not getting anywhere that makes sense here. Don't know if we're
referring to the crew or the arriving DochHey.]
{No new insights on reading it. My confusion started when I assumed
people who looked like they drank were not on the dry boat}
>monchoHmoH beltaHghach.
The pleasure made them smile.
>< pebej! > (jIjach) < Derbe'choHpu'!
Look! I cried. They're coming about!
[oh now I get it, the ones resembling quenched people are on the
Yellow Submarine]
>nuQIHmeH chol 'ej qaD!
They're coming over and mounting a challenge to damage us [hmm I'm
guessing clearer word and phrasing choices have been bypassed in
search of a rhyme]
{uh never mind. If "hither to work us weal" means anything, you've
translated it.}
>yu'egh SuS je Hutlhqu'taHvIS
Without wind or wave
{good}
>chongchoHmo' SomDaj, ngaD! >
Its hull stably accelerated [um that's not very Coleridgean, let me try again]
Steady sped the bark. [Funny how the same phrase can sound Star Trek
or Shakespeare. Why does English need all these words?]
{Ha, I now see my chong/chung error, but I leave it in so others may
learn from my shame, and because it amuses me that it made little
difference in the end}
>meQlaw' tIng 'ev yu'eghmey'e',
The western waves seemed to burn. [ooh, are there rules for combining
directions, or have you just varied the order for kicks?]
>'ej tlhoS vanpu'qu' jaj!
And the day was almost done. [van, another word I had to look up. I
knew immediately that salute was the wrong gloss]
>tIng 'ev yu'eghDaq tlhoS ba'choH
>wovqu'bogh jul HoSghaj,
The powerful brilliant sun almost set on the western waves
>maH jul je jojDaq Dochvetlh'e'
[searching for the verb so I can parse it...]
>pay' 'elchoHDI' QIbDaj.
[Ah here it is] Suddenly when the apparition's shadow started to
enter the apparition itself between us and the sun. [this is one of
those things I need 3D glasses to understand, right?]
{Okay, this is the only one that I think I really can't parse. No
problem at all with maH jul je jojDaq, so set that aside. We now have
Dochvetlh'e' pay' 'elchoHDI' QIbDaj. The topic tagging allowed
Dochvetlh'e' to move before the adverb, but I'll put it back:
pay' Dochvetlh 'elchoHDI' QIbDaj
Maybe Dochvetlh isn't the object of the verb. What other function
could it have?
Okay, I guess I can get "As for that object, its shadow suddenly came
between us and the sun," but it was a long road.
>SIbI' jul'e' So' mo'Hey reD,
What seemed to be a cage wall immediately hid the sun.
{cage wall = bars - I should have got that}
>(nutoDjaj qeylIS qa'!)
God have mercy upon us.
{Oh okay, the Catlholic version}
>bejlaw'DI' meQbogh qabHey tIn,
When a giant burning face seemed to watch
{Ah, combining your version and Colridge's I finally understand that
the sun is the face. I think I would have gone "what who?"}
>rurlaw' bIghHa' qama'.
Like the prisoner of a jail.
{I still don't know why there were bars on the sun}
>< Qu'vatlh! > (vIH tIqwIj, vaj jIQub)
Zounds! My heart beats, so I think
>< nom Dujmaj cholqu'lI'!
It's quickly closing in on our ship
>bIH'a' vo'wI'Daj'e',
julmo'
>ghew SIrgh rurbogh vo'wI'?
[yoylaw'mo' jImIStaH ... I have these bits and there's an obvious way
to assemble them into a sentence, but I'm using logic not grammar to
do it. but you now what? The reader can do that. Thus:]
are they?
its sails
the sails which the sun makes look like silk
>jul wov luSo'bogh joQDaj'e' 'ej mo' rurbogh bIH'a'?
Are they the rib[bon]s that hides the bright sun and looks like a cage?
[had to look up the second meaning of joQ, but neither one makes
sense to me.]
{Okay, this looks like my fault at not working hard enough to get it.
>'ej ngIq beq ghaH'a' be'vetlh'e'?
And the sole crewman that woman?
>cha' tu'lu'! latlh ghaH'a' Hegh'e'?
There are two! Is the other Death?
>Hegh'e', be' beq ghaH'a'?
Is Death the woman's crew?
[Coleridge does like me when he can't figure out what comes next,
just keep saying the same thing over again.]
{Heh, I read mate as loDnal, not as beq, but who is to say.}
>Doqqu' be' wuS, tlhab[2] qabDaj'e',
The woman's lips were so red, her face so free [and she had kaleidescope hair]
>baS SuD rurqu' jIbDaj:
[close] Her hair was like copper
{ha ha, at first I looked and thought "eh? Did I get SuD and Doq
mixed up? but no, the first SuD metal that came to mind was oxidized copper}
>ropwI' DIr chIS rur DIrDaj'e',
Her skin was as white as an invalid's.
{leprosy, eww. This is a really disgusting poem. I think I will use
it for inspiration.}
>< yInlaw'bogh Hegh > ghaH be'vetlh'e',
That woman was living Death.
>ghaH najchugh vay', ghaH Haj.
A nightmare.
{yIHem!}
>maH retlhDaq DonchoH Dujvetlh tIn,
That big ship ran alongside us. [Don't you love it when you're
bracing for another complex sentence and then you realize "Klingon
has ONE WORD for that!"]
>luQujtaHvIS cha' beq;
Two crewmen played her. [rock paper scissors, I'm guessing]
{I think you want to lose the lu- to give me any hope of realizing
that the game is occurring on the DujHey and not the narrator's ship.
Also I suggest SuD, gamble might clarify the game.
>< Quj chavlu'ta'! Qapla', Qapla'! >
The game is won! Success! Success!
>jatlh be', 'ej wejlogh weq.
said the woman and tapped thrice
{whistled? really? I have something about playing a drum. He's
recasting, you idiot, Qov. Well done.}
>ghIq ghIr jul HeH, pay' narghchoH Hov:
Then the edge of the sun descended, suddenly a star/the stars appeared
>SIbI' Hurghqu'choH ram;
Immediately it was the black of night.
>bIQ'a'Daq tlhuptaHvIS neH tlheD
Just whispering on the ocean she/it left.
>'ej nom Haw' qa' Duj tam.
And rapidly the quiet ghost ship fled.
>qa' Duj wI'Ij; wIbejtaHmo',
We listened to the ghost ship, as we were still watching it
>HIvje' rur tIqwIj 'ej 'oHvo'
>tlhutlhlaw' ghIjchu'ghach tIn!
My heart was like a cup and from it drank a great fear.
[Perfect grammatical sense, no lexical sense whatsoever]
{Ah okay, you'd think I'd get that, but that's twice the idea of
drinking blood has been implied and I've missed it. Is it me? Could
the word natlh help here? 'Iw tlhutlh ghIjchu'ghach tIn?}
>ram muD jeD, Hov Hurgh je DISIQ,
We endured the thick night air and the dark stars. [Coleridge, dude,
the only characteristic of stars is that they are not dark. Or are
you hallucinating a white sky with black stars?]
{Maybe puj for Hurgh, to avoid being unnecessarily psychadelic}
>vo'wI'majvo' pumqu'taH bIQ,
Water poured from our sails [yay!]
{pumqu' gave me the idea that the woman had bestowed a supernatural
gift of water-producing sails, not the idea of a drip. Were you
writing a story I'd suggest choS bIQ for dew, but dunno if you can
fit that in.}
>Sechmo' wov DeghwI' mIn -
The helmsman's eyes glowed in the torchlight
>ghIq chan ghangwI'Daq nargh maSwov,
Then the moon appeared on the eastern horizon.
{clomb! I love that word. I didn't know it had held on until that
recently. Also yold and shove (past of shave). }
>tlhoS maS So'lu'pu'bogh[3]: 'ej Hov
The moon was a tiny crescent,
>SIq maS pIrmuS 'er'In.[4]
And its lower horn fingered a star. [I didn't need any footnotes for
that, and I know you mean "pointed to"]
{I like that you have not preserved Coleridge's astronomical
impossibility :-) }
>maH DungDaq leng maS tlha'bogh Hov;
Above us roamed the stars chasing the moon [I love it when I look at
an ambiguous -bogh clause and realize, "It's BETTER with the
ambiguity" so don't mark anything]
>wa' mu' jIjachlaHpa'
Before I could say a word
>mubejmeH tlhe'ta' ngIq qab moH,
every ugly face turned to look at me
>bIHmo' jI'IghchoHta'.
I am cursed because of them. [the stars? the faces? I would have used
chaH even though the faces themselves are not people]
>yInwI'pu', yInbogh cha'vatlh nuv:
The living, the two hundred living people
{Thanks for doing the math for me.}
>yInbe'bogh ngoghmey moj.
became lifeless blocks [oh what?]
>pumDI' chaH 'ugh, 'ach jatlh pagh Hugh,
As they fell they were heavy, but not one throat spoke [and now they are chaH?]
>tugh pumpu' Hoch 'ej loj.
Soon they had all fallen and were no more.
>Heghpu'bogh lomvo' puv Hoch qa',
Spirits fled the dead corpses
>chaq Quch Sanchaj, chaq qab!
Perhaps their fates happy, perhaps sad
>'ej ngIq qa''e', mujuSbejta',
And every spirit passed me individually
>wab rur baHjanwIj wab!
the sound was like launchers
{I was kind of in suspense about what baHjan sound like, but I like it}
This was fun to read, and simple to understand except where noted.
>-----------------
>Qov's idea of footnotes seems good here.
>
>[1] This is crap. net Sov. Any attempts at providing an alternate for
>"shape" or "form" will be owed big time.
I didn't really mind it. It made it kind of psychedelic. You might
use DochHey at first then DujHey -- as that's what it seems to be -- later.
>[2] Perhaps a little too literal an interpretation. Does it work?
It's fine. If you mean more towards unconstrained, maybe Quch and if
you mean more towards independent, maybe jeQ or qu'.
>[3] Any of the people who read the 'u' libretto at qep'a' happen to
>remember how Marc phrased the Klingon for "crescent moon"? I think it
>was something along these lines, but I can't remember for certain.
I don't remember either.
>[4] This verse took a lot of work; it's the most complicated one in
>the whole Rime. Instead of the normal ABCB rhyme form Coleridge went
>right round the twist here with an AABCCBDDB. petaQ. At least there
>were no half-line rhymes in it or I'd've shot myself by now.
I'll have to go back and read it aloud now.
- Qov
