[89483] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: nuq bop bom: 'ay' wa'maH loS
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Robyn Stewart)
Wed Sep 7 09:24:26 2011
Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2011 06:11:55 -0700
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
From: Robyn Stewart <robyn@flyingstart.ca>
In-Reply-To: <BAY166-W3495AA660F5667E5B2C09BAA1F0@phx.gbl>
Errors-to: tlhingan-hol-bounce@kli.org
Reply-to: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
At 04:05 07/09/2011, you wrote:
>mujang Qov:
> > qay'be'. lut vIlI'taHbogh laDlaHtaHchugh vay' Doj ghaH.
>
>vIlaDtaH 'e' vIHechbej! DaH jImevlaHbe' lut 'ay'mey 'Iq vIlaDta'mo'...
jIyaj, 'ay'mey 'Iq vIqonta'mo'. (-:
> jIH:
> > (Qu'wIjvaD jIvummeH, qumwIj woj Hap woj je yejHaDDaq jIHtaH.
>
>Qov:
> > woj vIqawHa'be' 'e' vI'olmeH mu'ghom vIlaDta'! <woj Hap> 'e' Hechbej'a'?!
>
>HIja'. I meant "radioactive matter": not that the matter is *made*
>of radiation,
>but it's still in one sense "radiation matter". I guess woj
>tlhuDbogh Hap'e' would
>have been much clearer.
Hoch vIlaDpu'DI' vIyajbej. woj vIpIHbe'mo' SIbI' vIHarbe' neH.
vIlaDHa' 'e' vIHar.
>
>Qov:
> > Daj tlhIngan Hol vIlo'taHvIS jI*be subtle*nISbe'. vaj vIrarmeH
> > HanDogh, tlhIngan HoD DeS, nov HoD DeSDu', ghe'naQ loD DeSDu' je
> > vIQIH. Hmm, DeSDu' vIQIH 'e' vItIv neH.
>
>chaq Sar DanejnIS. porgh latlh 'ay'mey law' lutu'lu'!
Do'Ha' DaHjaj latlh ghopDu' vIQIHlI' 'a tugh latlh porgh 'ay' vIQIH.
>jIH:
> > (SuD wa' DIr Segh 'ej qIj latlh DIr Segh 'e' Dajatlh 'e' vIQub,
> jIqawchu'chugh
> > ('ach pupHa'chu'qu' yabwIj qawHaq).
>
>Qov:
> > "Hurgh" jIjatlh. 'ach qIj 'eSSIm DIr. jIHvaD Hurgh Hoch tlhIngan DIr: rut
> > Hurghqu'. not SuD!
>
>Doq'a' SuvwI'? {{:)
>
>qay'be'. DIr qIjchoHmoHlu'pu'bogh 'ay'mey leghlaw'pu' yabwIj. DIr
>meQlu'pu'bogh,
>DIr nguvmoHlu'pu'bogh rop ghap. 'ach pagh yIchoH; povqu'taH ('ej DeSDu'vetlh
>choHpu'bogh wanI''e' muSIvmoHbej).
vIQIjchu'be'law'. lweghtaHvIS tlhIngapu', choQ lammo' DeS Ha'DIbaH
ngejlu'pu'. ngugh ghaytan qIjchoHbejpu' DIr. <gangrene> ponglu'. nov
vormeH tlhIngan Qel, tlhIngan DIr ngeb lo'pu'. DaH pIv 'ach ratlh
tlhIngan DIr. <skin graft> ghajbogh nuv Daleghpu''a'?
>Qov:
> > nuq mI'vaD Huch vItogh DaneH?"[3]
>
>jIH:
> > I found this a little odd without the footnote, but like you say,
> it's likely
> > that Klingons don't talk much about this kind of thing.
>
>Qov:
> > Hey if you or anyone submits a superior version of "Captain, which
> > account should I bill these mission expenses to?" it will go straight
> > into the story.
>
>va! Qatlhbej. Especially considering how little vocabulary we have
>for economics.
>Heck, we only just received {wel} at qep'a'. Were I writing this
>idea (which I'm
>not, so feel free to say piffle) I guess I'd phrase it as: nuqvo'
>Huch vIDIlmoH
>DaneH? "Where do you want me to cause the money to be paid from?"
>but I did get
>the general gist from your sentence anyway, so there's no real need
>to change it.
Yeah I wanted the "I need an account number!" aspect of it, not the
practical part of actually paying the bills. It's more petty. The
money all comes out of the same bank account. It's just paperwork for
the quarterly reports.
>Qov:
> > ghochmajDaq rep 'ar wIbav 'e' DaHech?"
>
>jIH:
> > It's weird - we have no canon for this sort of sentence, but
> every time I go to
> > say "What do you want to do?" I *always* produce {nuq Data' DaneH?}.
>
>Qov:
> > Yeah, there have been those who argue stringently against it, but I
> > think almost everyone does it.
>
>For sure. I've tried to purge these from writing for years, but I
>inadvertently
>dropped one at the first night of qep'a' in my very first
>conversation in Klingon.
>I was kind of surprised at how naturally it seemed to come, too.
>
> > so this one crept in without my thinking about it. Back when the list
> > was busier and we had new people expounding the old ideas all the
> > time it had a name, QAO -- question as object.
>
>I've been around long enough to remember those days. :)
Yay!
> > The problem is, are we doing it because the relative pronouns are
> the same in
> > English as Klingon so it sounds natural to us, or are we doing it
> because it's
> > right for the language.
>
>I also seem to remember a problem with trying to solve the QAO
>argument was that
>"QAO" really meant two different types of construction. There was
>the form where
>the question word was acting like a relative pronoun - like: ??'Iv
>Daleghpu' 'e'
>vISov "I know who you have seen" - and another, where the whole
>sentence is still
>a question and the question word is behaving as such, but is being
>raised out of
>the clause being governed by 'e': like yours, rep 'ar wIbav 'e'
>DaHech? "how many
>hours do you intend for us to orbit?". That's not a relative sentence and it's
>the type of "question as object" I'd be more willing to accept.
I think one argument against the second is the slippery slope to the first.
>But anyway, I won't rehash the same tired old arguments here.
>They've been done
>to death and I don't think the canon since then has offered any help.
>
> > I also try really hard to put antecedents before pronouns even if it seems
> > backwards.
> >
> > Ghutar started cleaning his teeth
> > ghutar Ho'Du' Say'choHmoH - yes
>
>See, here I'd have to disagree. To me that reads like it could just
>as easily be
>someone else cleaning Ghutar's teeth, and that's how I'd interpret
>it at first.
But the other reads as if the Ghutar is cleaning the previously
mentioned person's teeth.
puchpa' 'el ghIrel. Ho'Du'Daj Say'choHmoH ghutar.
Uh, why isn't ghIrel cleaning his own teeth? (He's dead, but then
what's he doing in the bathroom).
puchpa' 'el ghIrel. ghutar Ho'Du' Say'choHmoH.
Okay, now it does sound like ghIrel is cleaning the teeth, but I
believe it's because I'm thinking in English a bit.
We don't have much trouble with this in English:
Ghirel entered the batlhroom. Ghutar started cleaning his teeth.
Hmm, okay maybe a bit. Maybe Ghirel survived the accident but is a
quadriplegic now and Ghutar has to brush his teeth. So then if there
is anyone else that could be acting in the sentence, I have to say:
ghutar Ho'Du' Say'choHmoH ghutar.
You can see why I can't say Ho'Du'Daj Say'choHmoH ghutar if there's
anyone else in the previous sentence, right?
>The OVS word order of Klingon means that every sentence with an
>overt subject has
>to have an antecedent after its anaphor, so I guess I think of
>Klingon as being
>much more free with cataphora than English is. 'ach vuDwIj neH 'oH.
>
>Qov:
> > tlhoy ngajchugh poH wejleS yuQDaq wISaq.
>
>jIH:
> > Hm. Does Saq work like a verb of motion in this way?
>
>Qov:
> > [wejleS yuQDaq wISaq] - in three days we will land it on a planet
>
>Oh! I see what you meant. I thought you were trying to make Saq work like jaH
>in the direct-object-marked-with-Daq sense, like yuQDaq wIjaH "we go to the
>planet". Forget I said anything about ba', then...
>
> > Is Saq not transitive? Should I say maSaq or wISaqmoH?
>
>Yep, I think so. In HolQeD 10:4 Marc talks about bird vocabulary, and he notes
>the verbs Saq and tlhot are used in relation to birds landing, which
>is usually
>an intransitive sense. I think maSaq would be best.
vIchoH.
>Qov:
> > mon HoD, yaSpu'Daj pIm tIvtaHvIS
>
>jIH:
> > nuqDaq yaSpu' pIm tu'pu' HoD? It sounds a little like he's had his officers
> > replaced and he's now enjoying the new different ones. Do you
> mean Sar, or is
> > it that the two officers you're talking about are different from
> one another?
>
>Qov:
> > I mean Sar.
>...(poD)
> > Maybe I even mean pImchu'ghach. nuq DamaS?
>
>I never thought I'd see myself preferring a sentence with a -ghach'ed verb...
>While I do like Sar, I guess here pImchu'ghach focuses more on the difference
>between the officers and less on the officers themselves. I sense that's what
>you're aiming for, so I think it's better.
Hee hee. I always feel guilty when I pull them out, but while they
can be a hallmark of bad, bad Klingon (as recently discussed with
<'eng bIr>), they have their place. Marc saw a need, after all.
Thanks for helping me improve my expressive powers in Klingon. Now I
need a strategy to keep -w and w' words distinct in my mind. I swear
I've used Saw' three times and looked it up six! Restraining myself
from going and looking it up again to make sure.
- Qov
