[89469] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: nuq bop bom: 'ay' wa'maH loS
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Robyn Stewart)
Tue Sep 6 12:23:07 2011
Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 09:07:41 -0700
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
From: Robyn Stewart <robyn@flyingstart.ca>
In-Reply-To: <BAY166-W5A5785226BFC66D2E3B63AA1C0@phx.gbl>
Errors-to: tlhingan-hol-bounce@kli.org
Reply-to: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
At 04:29 06/09/2011, you wrote:
>wej 'ay'Hommey chu' vIlaDbe'pu'mo' jItlhIj.
qay'be'. lut vIlI'taHbogh laDlaHtaHchugh vay' Doj ghaH.
>juHwIjvo' jIlengtaH qaStaHvIS wa'
>Hogh 'ej pIj InternetvaD De'wI'wIj vIrarmoHlaHbe'. (Qu'wIjvaD jIvummeH, qumwIj
>woj Hap woj je yejHaDDaq jIHtaH.
woj vIqawHa'be' 'e' vI'olmeH mu'ghom vIlaDta'! <woj Hap> 'e' Hechbej'a'?!
> jIqIDbe'. tIr tIQ vIHaDtaH jIH. mung poHDaj
>vIper 'e' vInID, 'ej perlu'meH 'ut woj chungwI''a', vaj yejHaDvamDaq
>vIlengnIS.
>Dajqu'. loQ munuQ Hung'a' 'ach Qu' vItIvqu'.)
Dajqu'bej. chaq choHaghmoH DaHjaj lut 'ay'. Satlh tej luqIH Mahoun QeDpIn je.
> > HoDpa'Daq, DeSDu'Daj nuD HoD. not 'oy' bIH 'ach pa' cha' DIr Segh
> > DuDlu'. cha' mut DIr DuDlu'.
>
>toH! 'e' vIloybe'. HoD bopchu'qu' ngem lutHomHey 'e' vIloy.
Daj tlhIngan Hol vIlo'taHvIS jI*be subtle*nISbe'. vaj vIrarmeH
HanDogh, tlhIngan HoD DeS, nov HoD DeSDu', ghe'naQ loD DeSDu' je
vIQIH. Hmm, DeSDu' vIQIH 'e' vItIv neH. Damnit, I learned the
Icelandic for "art" last night and as my brain hasn't built an
Icelandic box yet, it helpfully volunteered the wort when I wanted Klingon.
>(SuD wa' DIr Segh 'ej qIj latlh DIr Segh 'e' Dajatlh 'e' vIQub, jIqawchu'chugh
>('ach pupHa'chu'qu' yabwIj qawHaq). qIj tlhIngan DIr 'e' Dalegh'a'?)
"Hurgh" jIjatlh. 'ach qIj 'eSSIm DIr. jIHvaD Hurgh Hoch tlhIngan
DIr: rut Hurghqu'. not SuD!
> > jatlh chelwI', "lutlh ghoch 'ach chepchoH. ghaytan pa' Sutmey
> > wIngevlaH 'ej chaHvaD tIr wIHIjlaH. Qu'vamvaD mI' vIghajbe'. nuq
> > mI'vaD Huch vItogh DaneH?"[3]
>
>I found this a little odd without the footnote, but like you say, it's likely
>that Klingons don't talk much about this kind of thing.
Hey if you or anyone submits a superior version of "Captain, which
account should I bill these mission expenses to?" it will go straight
into the story.
> > jatlh jonwI' boQ, "leH motlhvaD wa' QuQ chu'Ha' neH jonwI'.
> > ghochmajDaq rep 'ar wIbav 'e' DaHech?"
>
>It's weird - we have no canon for this sort of sentence, but every
>time I go to
>say "What do you want to do?" I *always* produce {nuq Data' DaneH?}. I find it
>intriguing that this construction comes naturally to you too, since I'm sure I
>never actively learned it from anyone. (Not a correction, not at all; just an
>observation.)
Yeah, there have been those who argue stringently against it, but I
think almost everyone does it. I actually try to avoid it. We have
guidance against it, as I recall, with a specific exception for SIv,
so this one crept in without my thinking about it. Back when the list
was busier and we had new people expounding the old ideas all the
time it had a name, QAO -- question as object. I think it's in the
FAQ. The problem is, are we doing it because the relative pronouns
are the same in English as Klingon so it sounds natural to us, or are
we doing it because it's right for the language. I also try really
hard to put antecedents before pronouns even if it seems backwards.
Ghutar started cleaning his teeth
ghutar Ho'Du' Say'choHmoH - yes
Ho'Du'Daj Say'choHmoH - no
cf.
His tie annoyed David - no
David's tie annoyed him - yes
People use possessive pronouns before their antecedents in Klingon
all the time, but I think they are almost always wrong.
> > jatlh HoD. "tugh tlhIHvaD Se' mI' je vISuq. pa' chaq qaStaHvIS wa'
> > rep neH maratlh, chaq qaStaHvIS wa' ram maratlh. yuQvam wIbavtaHvIS
> > SaSovmoH. tlhoy ngajchugh poH wejleS yuQDaq wISaq.
>
>Hm. Does Saq work like a verb of motion in this way? I think it might be a bit
>of a stretch. Though it's tantalising to think of this device as being able to
>show motion and goal more generally: quSDaq jIba' "I am sitting on the chair",
>but quSDaq vIba' "I [go and] sit down on the chair", maybe? I'm going to have
>to think some more about that.
Hmm, maybe I've written a difficult to parse sentence, because I
can't see anything strange about the way I've done it.
[tlhoy ngaj chugh poH] - if the time period is too short
[wejleS yuQDaq wISaq] - in three days we will land it on a planet
wISaq - we land it/we will land it/we landed it
vaj nunglaH wejleS/DaHjaj/wa'Hu'/ghorgh
Its possible as someone who lands vessels all the time that I use the
English word differently than those who don't, but I can't see how.
Ohh, oh I've just reread your example. I reject quSDaq vIba' as
ungrammatical. Is Saq not transitive? Should I say maSaq or wISaqmoH?
> > "maj," jatlh HoD. "SanaD. yuch neH'a' vay'?"
>
>jatlh Huch, 'ach bom yuch!
choHaghmoH.
> > mon HoD, yaSpu'Daj pIm tIvtaHvIS
>
>nuqDaq yaSpu' pIm tu'pu' HoD? It sounds a little like he's had his officers
>replaced and he's now enjoying the new different ones. Do you mean Sar, or is
>it that the two officers you're talking about are different from one another?
I mean Sar. I realized I should substitute that before I'd even
finished reading the Klingon part of your comment. Thank you. Maybe I
even mean pImchu'ghach. nuq DamaS?
- Qov.
