[83980] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: Missing question words
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Doq)
Tue Jan 15 13:38:39 2008
From: Doq <doq@embarqmail.com>
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
In-Reply-To: <f5b478ef0801141837s3c594a73o86859e41fa5a8ffb@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 13:35:55 -0500
Errors-to: tlhingan-hol-bounce@kli.org
Reply-to: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
I think it helps to keep in mind that {ghoS} implies motion, while
{Hop} and {Sum} do not. I don't think that {legh} implies motion,
either, but given the canon example of {-vo'} in CK, it looks as if
perhaps Klingons consider vision to be an action that begins with the
person seeing and moves out to the target of their vision. Perhaps,
since for a Klingon, vision is so often practiced through the sights
of a weapon, that might explain the association with motion.
{naDevvo' jIghoS} is clearer than {yIghoS} because {ghoS} can imply
motion toward or away from a given locative. It implies motion along a
path, in one direction or the other. You can make the direction clear
with {-vo'}.
Since the direct object of {ghoS} is typically the target of the
motion, you could say "Come here" either as {naDev yIghoS} or more
simply {HIghoS}. If you use the speaker as the locative, you have
already expressed {naDev}.
I think it is interesting to note that {naDevvo' vaS'a'Daq
majaHlaH'a'?} could have also been expressed as {vaS'a' wIjaHlaH'a'?}.
By necessity, they would begin their journey {naDev}, and the target
of the motion could be either a locative or a direct object, with or
without {-Daq}. Sometimes, I get the feeling that Okrand intentionally
makes the humans in CK say things in strange and excessively explicit
ways, perhaps parodying the Berlitz tapes. That would explain a lot of
CK canon.
My problem with {-vo'}/{-Daq} for an expression of distance is that it
implies motion, and "distance" does not. If you used {joj}, you could
similarly describe the distance without implying any directional
motion. Meanwhile, I doubt we have much in the way of canon use of
{joj} and I personally find it somewhat awkward to use.
Doq
On Jan 14, 2008, at 9:37 PM, qa'vaj wrote:
> On Jan 14, 2008 4:14 PM, Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu> wrote:
>> {naDev} is assumed to be the point of reference for {Hop} and
>> {Sum}, but
>> not for all verbs. E.g.:
>>
>> naDevvo' yIghoS
>> Go away! TKD
>>
>
> {naDev yIghoS} means Come here!, so I'm not sure if omitting
> {naDevvo'} is
> ok.
>
> Does {yIghoS} automatically mean "Go away!" when no locative is
> present? I
> could envision contexts where it might mean "Come on over here!" as
> well.
>
>
>>
>> naDevvo' jIleghlaHchu'be'
>> I can't see well from here. CK
>>
>> naDevvo' vaS'a'Daq majaHlaH'a'
>> Can we get to the Great Hall from here? PK
>>
>>
> SuStel commented on the first of these two, and I agree with what he
> said.
> For the second one, I was thinking along the {-vo'} {-Daq} pair for
> the
> 'specifying distance' problem. My reasoning was "geometric", and I
> can see
> that reasoning going on as well in {naDevvo' vaS'a'Daq}.
>
> When we add a time stamp, the time stamp usually specifies a point
> in time
> (even if not precise). For a time interval we use {qaStaHvIS}.
> Similarly
> {-Daq} generally means a point in space, although it can also mean a
> ray
> moving into a point for some contexts. {-vo'} generally means
> something
> like a ray moving away from a point. We don't have a verb
> corresponding to
> {qaS} that we can use to mean "while a spatial interval happens".
> The canon
> seems to use the {-vo'}-{Daq} combination in order to provide a
> locative
> that means a spatial interval, a locative interval between two defined
> points. If we just say {vaS'a'Daq majaHlaH'a'}, it might also mean
> something like: "Are we able to go around in the Great Hall?". The
> {-Daq}
> resets the spatial point reference to {vaS'a'}. So the {naDevvo'} is
> probably needed to be clear.
>
> That's also why I think that something like {naDevvo' juHwIjDaq wa'SaD
> qelI'qam ....} is the way to specify the distance. I just don't
> know how to
> complete the puzzle. Maybe {naDevvo' juHwIjDaq wa'SaD qelI'qam
> 'abbogh chuq
> tu'lu'}.
>
> --
> qa'vaj
> qo'lIj DachenmoHtaH
>
>
>
