[83952] in tlhIngan-Hol
Header nouns (was Re: Topic)
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Alan Anderson)
Sun Jan 13 23:16:49 2008
In-Reply-To: <BAY127-W21D0C9B63C41D228C036D8AA460@phx.gbl>
From: Alan Anderson <aranders@insightbb.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 23:11:14 -0500
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-to: tlhingan-hol-bounce@kli.org
Reply-to: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
ja' QeS 'utlh:
> (And despite your objection, ghunchu'wI', I called {SuvwI''e'} a
> header
> noun here because as I understood the term it refers to any noun at
> the
> beginning of a sentence that isn't the subject or the object. I've
> never heard
> at any time during my years on the list that "header noun"
> specifically
> invokes the OVS structure. Where was that said?
The best explanation I can find in the archives is Krankor's post
from May 2002, http://www.kli.org/tlhIngan-Hol/2002/May/msg00144.html
> And even if true, despite
> the odd grammar, I don't see why the comparative construction
> should be
> treated as something that somehow isn't a sentence; I wouldn't shy
> away
> from {jIH Doy' law' SoH Doy' puS net Sov} "everyone knows that I'm
> more tired than you" simply because the comparative construct isn't a
> standard sentence.
I don't claim that it isn't a sentence. I do claim that it doesn't
follow the Object-Verb-Subject structure. TKD section "6.1. Basic
Sentences is all about OVS, and talks about what we've been calling
"header nouns" near the end:
"Any noun in the sentence indicating something other than
subject or object comes first, before the object noun. Such
nouns usually end in a Type 5 noun suffix (section 3.3.5)."
The comparative formula doesn't have a subject or object in the
traditional sense, so Krankor's definition of header nouns doesn't
quite handle them.
> IMHO both {qIbDaq} and {SuvwI''e'} in the ST5
> example are behaving exactly as they would if they were modifying an
> OVS sentence, so what would you call them instead of "header nouns"?)
I don't share your opinion. In an OVS sentence, locatives tell where
the action of the verb is taking place or directed toward. The
{qIbDaq SuvwI''e'} example doesn't make sense to me with that
interpretation. It doesn't say "In the galaxy, you are greatest."
The {qIbDaq} idea seems to apply more to {SuvwI''e'} "warriors" than
to {Dun} "great/greatest". It would be perfect if we could translate
the first few words as "you among warriors in the galaxy".
Similarly, the {reH latlh qabDaq qul tuj law' Hoch tuj puS} proverb
doesn't make sense with {latlh qabDaq} describing the location of the
comparison. It implies not that "on another's face, fire is the
hottest thing", but that "fire on another's face" is the hottest of
fires.
From these examples, I tend to think of such type-5-marked words in
comparatives and superlatives more as describing the noun they
precede than as describing the sentence as a whole. In any case,
they don't fit the idea of "header noun" as I understand it.
