[83951] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: Topic (was Re: Specifying distance traveled)
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (QeS 'utlh)
Sun Jan 13 19:46:22 2008
From: QeS 'utlh <qeslagh@hotmail.com>
To: <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 10:44:29 +1000
Errors-to: tlhingan-hol-bounce@kli.org
Reply-to: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
ghItlhpu' Doq, ja':
>You are arguing for the interpretation I have always had of this example.
I don't follow. You started off by saying of {-'e'}:
"What he never does, which now stuns me that I never noticed this before,
is use it like every other Type 5 noun suffix. It does not appear on a noun
in front of the direct object with no other clue for the grammatical function
of the word."
Notice you said "never", which depends upon your analysis of the {qIbDaq
SuvwI''e'...} example. Then you followed that with your analysis of that
example:
"This example looked odd, until I realized that {SuvwI''e'} is {Hoch} in
apposition. This is the example that led me to my earlier misunderstanding
of this suffix. I thought that the context here was {SuvwI'} and the rest of
the sentence operated under that context, but given the rest of the canon,
it seems that it is more simply {Hoch} in apposition."
With that, I understand you to be explicitly denying that {SuvwI''e'} sets
the topic of the sentence - the context, to use your term - which is
definitely not the way I understand it. To me, {SuvwI''e'} is precisely what
you seem to believe it isn't: I view it as a bog-standard header noun that
does set the context for the whole sentence, and not just a kind of qualifier
for {Hoch}.
(And despite your objection, ghunchu'wI', I called {SuvwI''e'} a header
noun here because as I understood the term it refers to any noun at the
beginning of a sentence that isn't the subject or the object. I've never heard
at any time during my years on the list that "header noun" specifically
invokes the OVS structure. Where was that said? And even if true, despite
the odd grammar, I don't see why the comparative construction should be
treated as something that somehow isn't a sentence; I wouldn't shy away
from {jIH Doy' law' SoH Doy' puS net Sov} "everyone knows that I'm
more tired than you" simply because the comparative construct isn't a
standard sentence. IMHO both {qIbDaq} and {SuvwI''e'} in the ST5
example are behaving exactly as they would if they were modifying an
OVS sentence, so what would you call them instead of "header nouns"?)
ja'taH Doq:
>It was what I used to justify {-'e'} as a marker for a header noun.
>That's what I mean by context.
Fine, but if you reread the second part of your quoted message above,
you'll see you also said you originally thought that {SuvwI''e'} was the topic
but then "realized that {SuvwI''e'} is {Hoch} in apposition". My
understanding of what you said is that you *used to* think that {SuvwI''e'}
was a topic header, but that you now don't; I was arguing that your original
interpretation was the correct one. If I did misunderstand, then feel free
to set me straight.
ja'taH:
>Meanwhile, as you point out, there are no other examples of {-'e'}
>marking a noun hanging out in the header with no subject or predicate
>role.
No other *incontrovertible* examples; {HaqwI''e' DaH yISam} may be one,
and although the net result is the same, I agree with SuStel that it may be
an underlying shift of {HaqwI''e'} to header position rather than a shift of
{DaH} to a position between the direct object and the verb.
jatlhtaH:
>Meanwhile, comparatives are different enough from other Klingon
>grammar, that it's hard to argue that a comparative is the only canon
>we have for justifying this idea that context is set by a header noun
>with {-'e'}.
As I said above, I don't think there's any evidence for treating comparative
constructions as syntactically different from an ordinary sentence unit until
told otherwise. This example demonstrates that comparatives can take
header nouns; even ignoring the controversial {SuvwI''e'}, the presence of
{qIbDaq} also shows that.
tlhob:
>Lacking any other examples, what do we do with this?
Whatever you like. Use it or don't; it's ultimately your decision.
QeS 'utlh
tlhIngan Hol yejHaD pab po'wI'
(Grammarian of the Klingon Language Institute)
not nItoj Hemey ngo' juppu' ngo' je
(Old roads and old friends will never deceive you)
- Ubykh Hol vIttlhegh
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