[83924] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: Specifying distance traveled (was Art of War Chp. 2 (section 1/3))
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Doq)
Thu Jan 10 14:58:02 2008
From: Doq <doq@embarqmail.com>
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20080110092517.029bb5e0@imap.uchicago.edu>
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:56:28 -0500
Errors-to: tlhingan-hol-bounce@kli.org
Reply-to: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
voragh,
Thank you. I apparently have, indeed, been misusing {-'e'}. Reading
again all that you have assembled and looking more closely at all the
canon, it seems that {-'e'} is only used for emphasis. With very few
specific exceptions, it apparently never independently defines the
grammatical function of a noun. Okrand has used it to:
1. mark the noun following a pronoun used as the verb "to be".
2. mark the head noun of a relative clause when there was both a
subject and object therein.
3. emphasize the subject or direct object, either in place, or in
apposition.
What he never does, which now stuns me that I never noticed this
before, is use it like every other Type 5 noun suffix. It does not
appear on a noun in front of the direct object with no other clue for
the grammatical function of the word.
I also wish to concede to SuStel that he definitely understood this
better than I did. He just didn't quite give me enough material to
bridge the gap between my ignorance and his knowledge.
I'll address each canon example below.
On Jan 10, 2008, at 10:43 AM, Steven Boozer wrote:
> Doq wrote:
>> I wish you would offer a more extensive lesson in the use of {-'e'}
>> so
>> that I and others can learn how to use it well, since I'm apparently
>> using it so poorly.
Indeed, I have used it poorly.
>> It's not a lesson, per se, but here's what I have in my notes WRT
>> {-'e'}
> (N5 syntactic marker):
It is a lesson, and a good one. Thank you.
> TKD p.29: This suffix emphasizes that the noun to which it is
> attached is
> the topic of the sentence. In English, this is frequently
> accomplished by
> stressing the noun (saying it emphatically) or by special syntactic
> constructions:
> lujpu' jIH'e'
> I, and only I, have failed.
Here, it is used on the subject, in place. Also, note to those who
have stated that just putting the pronoun here at all already
indicates emphasis, so you shouldn't use {-'e'}, well, here it is,
used by the guy who wrote the language. Also, note the null prefix.
Odd, that.
Clipped Klingon, maybe?
> De''e' vItlhapnISpu'
Direct object, emphasized in place.
> I needed to get the INFORMATION.
> It was the information (and not something else) I needed.
> Without the {'e'}, these same sentences would have no noun singled
> out for
> emphasis:
> lujpu' jIH
> I have failed.
Apparently, the prefix {jI-} is optional when the pronoun is here?
Clipped. Must be clipped.
> De' vItlhapnISpu'
> I needed to get the information.
> For a further use of {-'e'}, see section 6.3.
>
>
> TKD p.68: There is no verb corresponding to English "to be" in
> Klingon. On
> the other hand, all pronouns (section 5.1) can be used as verbs, in
> the
> sense of "I am", "you are", etc. ... When there is a definite
> subject, it
> follows the pronoun and takes the {-'e'} "topic" suffix (see section
> 3.3.5):
> puqpu' chaH qama'pu''e'
> The prisoners are children. As for the prisoners, they are
> children.
> pa'DajDaq ghaHtaH la''e'
Normal "pronoun as verb" example.
> The commander is in his quarters. As for the commander, he is in
> his
> quarters.
>
>
> TKD p.180: The adverbial may actually follow the object noun (but
> still
> precedes the verb) when the object noun is topicalized by means of
> the noun
> suffix {-'e'}: {HaqwI''e' DaH yISam} "Find the SURGEON now!"
Direct object, emphasized in place.
> Okrand was interviewed in HolQeD 4.2:
>
> Q: That's another thing people have been hassling about, because you
> called {–'e'} the topic marker, and all the time you use it as a
> focus marker.
> MO: And they're making the distinction... You're using topic like
> topic/comment.
> Q: You've been saying things like "As for the ship, it's big,"
> which is
> focus.
> MO: I stand corrected.
> Q: So it really is a focus marker, then?
> MO: Yeah.
>
>
> KGT (via charghwI'): In one of the descriptions of a Klingon dialect
> (Morska, I think), Okrand remarks that the dialect does not normally
> add
> the {-'e'} to the subject of a "to be" sentence. This explains the
> *Dujvets
> 'o nuq, reen* line in ST5... in this dialect, sometimes the speaker
> uses
> the {-'e'} and other times he does not. When he does, it indicates
> focus,
> as in, "As for my name, it is charghwI'." When it is missing, the
> sentence
> merely means, "My name is charghwI'." Okrand points out that for
> speakers
> of any other dialect of Klingon, there is no way to distinguish
> between the
> existence or absence of focus on the subject of a "to be" sentence.
> The
> {-'e'} is needed for arbitrary syntax and does not imply focus.
>
>
> Examples with {-'e'} in canon:
>
> nuqDaq 'oH puchpa''e'
> Where's the bathroom? PK
Pronoun/to be
> wa' vub ghaH tlhIngan gharwI''e'
> One hostage is a Klingon diplomat. (ST5 notes)
Pronoun/to be
> wa' ghaH tera'ngan'e'
> One is a Terran. (ST5 notes)
Pronoun/to be
> ... tlhIngan'e', tera'ngan'e', romuluSngan'e'
> [... a Klingon, a Terran, a Romulan] ST5
Phrase. Not a sentence. Nothing grammatical can be gleaned without
further context
> tlhIngan ghaH wa' vub'e'
> One of the hostages is a Klingon. ST5
Pronoun/to be
> qIbDaq SuvwI''e' SoH Dun law' Hoch Dun puS
> You would be the greatest warrior in the galaxy. ST5
This example looked odd, until I realized that {SuvwI''e'} is {Hoch}
in apposition. This is the example that led me to my earlier
misunderstanding of this suffix. I thought that the context here was
{SuvwI'} and the rest of the sentence operated under that context, but
given the rest of the canon, it seems that it is more simply {Hoch} in
apposition.
> 'entepray' 'oH DoS'e'!
> Enterprise targeted! ST5
Pronoun/to be
> 'ach HoD, Hevetlh wIghoSchugh veH tIn wI'el maH'e'!
> But Captain, that course will take us into the [Great] Barrier as
> well. ST5
Subject, emphasized in place. This time, he includes the {wI-} prefix.
Given the earlier example, it is apparently optional.
> chorghSaD qelI'qam HIvchuq'e' vInoH
> Estimating attack range in 8,000 kellicams. ST5
We're not sure if this is correctly transcribed, since the subtitles
of the movies are not given in Klingon. If it is {-'e'} and not the
pronoun {'e'}, then it is the direct object, emphasized in place.
> cheng'e' DaH yISam!
> Find Chang. ST6
Direct object, emphasized in place.
> not qoHpu''e' neH ghIjlu'
> Only fools have no fear. TKW
This one is odd. "One never scares only FOOLS."?
It looks like a direct object, emphasized in place. Everything up to
this point makes that the likely interpretation. But if {qoHpu''e'}
really is the direct object of {ghIjlu'}, then this should mean, "One
never scares only fools," and "fools" are emphasized.
If we go back to the "hold a sign over your head" interpretation, then
the context is "fools" and ... okay, let's stretch it to have the
context of "only fools". "One never scares them."
So, by pulling {qoHpu''e' neH} out of the sentence and translating it,
"One never scares them," and then making the context "only fools", it
sorta, almost, kinda works.
Maybe this one is not a great example to go out on a limb basing
generalities on.
> bortaS nIvqu' 'oH bortaS'e'
> Revenge is the best revenge. TKW
Pronoun/to be. Apparently, this is in response to Jack Benny's famous
line, "The best revenge is living well."
> butlh ghajbogh nuv'e' yIHo'
> Admire the person with dirt under his fingernails. TKW
Emphasizing the head noun of a relative clause, so you know to admire
the person and not the dirt.
> qun qon charghwI'pu''e'
> History is written by the victors. TKW
Subject emphasized in place.
> loghDaq Suvrupbogh SuvwI'pu' chaH Hoch SuvwI'pu''e'
> In space, all warriors are cold warriors ("warriors who are ready to
> fight"). TKW
Pronoun/to be
> DaHjaj SuvwI''e' jIH
> Today I am a warrior. TKW
Emphasis on "direct object" in place. I know. It's "to be". There is
no direct object. Grammatically, if you see {jIH} as the verb "to be",
in Klingon grammar, {SuvwI'} is the direct object. And it is
emphasized. In place. The {-'e'} does not tell you the grammatical
function of the verb. It just adds emphasis.
> reH Hegh yoHwI'pu''e'
> Always it is the brave ones who die. TKW
Subject emphasized in place.
> nobmey qembogh yIrIDnganpu''e' yIvoqQo'
> Don't trust Yridians who bring gifts. TKW
Head noun of relative clause marked by {-'e'}. Not that you should
trust gifts given by Yridians...
> Huch nobHa'bogh verenganpu''e' yIvoqQo'
> Don't trust Ferengi who give back money. TKW
Head noun of relative clause marked by {-'e'}.
> tajwIj 'oHbe' chorlIj jeqbogh Dochvetlh'e'
> That is not my dagger protruding from your midsection. FTG
Head noun of relative clause marked by {-'e'}
> tera'ngan ghaH qama''e'
> The prisoner is a Terran. KGT
Pronoun/to be.
> bIghHa'Daq ghaHtaH qama''e'
> The prisoner is in the prison. KGT
Pronoun/to be.
> nuqDaq 'oH jengva''e'
> Where is the plate? KGT
Pronoun/to be.
> nuqDaq 'oH ngop'e'
> Where are the plates? KGT
Pronoun/to be.
> nuqDaq bIH ngop'e'
> Where are the plates? (childish error!) KGT
Pronoun/to be.
> ra'wI' ghaH qImlaq'e'
> K'mlak is a commander. KGT
Pronoun/to be.
> ya ghaH qImlaq Sogh'e'
> Lieutenant K'mlak is the tactical officer. KGT
Pronoun/to be.
> yaS wa'DIch ghaH qImlaq la''e'
> Commander K'mlak is first officer. KGT
Pronoun/to be.
> bIQ'a'Daq 'oHtaH 'etlh'e'
> The sword is in the ocean. KGT
Pronoun/to be.
> SuvwI' ghaH vavoy'e'
> My daddy is a warrior (childish). KGT
Pronoun/to be.
> ngIb ghaH verengan'e'
> The Ferengi is an ankle [insult] KGT
Pronoun/to be
> Ho' ghaH HoD'e'
> The captain is an idol (lit. "The captain is a tooth" [slang]). KGT
Pronoun/to be.
> qIvo'rIt toQDuj 'oH tlhIngan wo' Duj pagh'e'
> The Imperial Klingon Vessel Pagh is a K'Vort-class Bird-of-Prey. S7
Pronoun/to be. Note that apparently, only the last word in an
appositional pair need {-'e'}, since {tlhIngan wo' Duj} and {pagh} are
two names for the same entity, unless {tlhIngan wo' Duj} is something
like a rank, except that ranks follow the proper names of officers...
> yIntaHvIS qeylIS'e' lIjlaHbe'bogh vay' batlh 'etlhvam chenmoHlu'pu'
> this sword of honor descends from the time of Kahless the
> Unforgettable. S8
Head noun of relative clause emphasized by {-'e'}
> veH Qav 'oH logh'e'
> space--the final frontier. DS99
Pronoun/to be.
> Paramount Pictures malja' permey bIH Star Trek pong'e' Deghmey'e' je
> "Star Trek" and related marks are trademarks of Paramount Pictures.
> (Copyright)
Pronoun/to be. Unlike apposition, all nouns in a list conjoined by
{je} do need their own {-'e'}.
> qorDu'Daj tuq 'oS Ha'quj'e' tuQbogh wo'rIv
> The sash that Worf wears is a symbol of his family's house. S20
Head noun of relative clause emphasized by {-'e'}
> ngoQvam luchavmeH ghawran maghpu' be'nI'pu'. woQ luSuqmeH jIjpu' chaH
> romuluSngan'e' je.
> To this end, the sisters have acted against Gowron, going as far as
> to work
> with Romulan factions in order to gain power. S26
Pronoun/to be.
> yoq yIn yuQ 'oH Qo'noS'e'. yInSIp voQSIp je ngaS muDDaj.
> Qo'noS is a class-M planet with an oxygen/nitrogen atmosphere. S27
Pronoun/to be.
> pa' 'oHtaH vaS'a''e'. tlhIngan qum waw' 'oH.
> This is where the Klingon Great Hall is located, the center of the
> Klingon
> government. S27
Pronoun/to be.
> nentay loptaHvIS tlhIngan potlh tlhIngan 'oy'naQ'e'
> The Klingon Painstik is an important part of a Klingon's Age of
> Ascension
> ceremony. S32
Subject emphasized in place. "_The Klingon painstick_ is important
while a Klingon celebrates the Age of Ascension."
> tlhIngan juHqo'Daq tlhIng yoSDaq 'oH toQDuj chenmoHlu'meH Daq
> wa'DIch'e'
> 1st Construction Site: The Kling District, Klingon Home World. KBOP
Pronoun/to be. "_The first in-order-to-make-Bird-of-Prey site_ is in
the Kling District on the Klingon Home World."
> meyrI'Daq 'oHtaH gho'e'
> The circle is in the square. [qep'a' 2005]
Pronoun/to be.
>
>
> --
> Voragh
> Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
Thanks. Your excellent cataloging of canon has corrected my
misunderstanding of how this noun suffix should be used. This was
exactly what I was asking for.
Thank you much, again.
Doq
