[2493] in tlhIngan-Hol
REPOST: Gettysburg, and Anthrakes o Thesauros
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU)
Tue Jan 11 03:46:58 1994
Reply-To: "Klingon Language List" <tlhIngan-Hol@klingon.East.Sun.COM>
From: nsn@vis.mu.OZ.AU (Nick NICHOLAS)
To: "Klingon Language List" <tlhIngan-Hol@klingon.East.Sun.COM>
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 94 19:42:13 EDT
These two messages don't seem to have gone through.
Subject: Re: *ghetISbergh SoQ - nIDghach cha'DIch
To: tlhIngan-Hol@klingon.East.Sun.COM
Date: Sun, 9 Jan 94 19:52:50 EDT
batlh choja', Will Martin quv:
= DaH veS'a' wIchenmoHtaHvIS Suv'eghlI' wo'maj
=[Nick: Do you prefer that we cause this war to take form better than fighting
=the war? I grok the problem of fighting a war. That is probably an English
=idiom. We fight the enemy. We do not fight the war).]
Correct. "Fighting a war" is idiomatic in many a language, and we have no
way of knowing whether Klingon is one of them, but it's always safest to
assume it isn't. Myself, though, I would limit "chenmoH" to physical objects,
and would instead use "wIqasmoHtaHvIS".
= taHlaHtaH'a' wo'maj vay' wo' raplaw' joq 'e' toblI' noHvam
It's decidedly risky to use raplaw' as an adjective; doesn't TKD rule against
all suffixes on adjectives but for qu' and, from an inspection of the
vocabulary, possibly -be' and -Ha'? In fact, I use type 5 suffixes to
*distinguish* between verbs and adjectives. The most sensible thing to do
here is use a relative clause.
For your conclusion to the address, two comments; they will hardly endear
me to you, but yISIQ. First, I am quite disappointed that you did not
endeavour a literal translation of the final period of the speech --- more
so when two translations thereof have been posted here. A translation of
the address missing that criticial last sentence may be more Klingonic, but
seems to hardly count as a translation any more. Second, I don't want to revive
that whole Bible dispute, but feel it fair to remind this mostly American
list that, just as there are those who, quite rightfully, are vexed by
anything seeming like the greater glorification of Christianity, there are
also those (not significantly fewer in number) who would similarly object
to anything seeming like the greater glorification of the United States.
The lesson to draw from this, I would hope, is not to refuse to translate
this or that, but to live and let live, given that it is unlikely for there
to be anything one person holds dear which another will not revile.
I do have to admit, however, that your translation has been the most fluent-
sounding Klingon I have read --- all the more chagrin for me, since that
is not how *I* would have translated it! ;) --- and I congratulate you on
cutting all those Gordian knots I wouldn't have.
Subject: Anthrakes o thesauros
To: tlhIngan-Hol@klingon.east.sun.com (Klingon Mailing List)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 94 15:34:07 EDT
An ancient Greek saying, meaning: "The treasure turned out to be coal", which,
I fear, is my reaction to two articles in the new HolQeD which has just arrived
here.
The first is Okrand's much vaunted extension to Klingon. I'm sorry, people,
but it just wasn't worth waiting for. We'd already worked out how to say
"with" and "weather" on our own; I, at least, had adequate expressions for
"ear" and "music"; and the "win" and "mark" are no 'epiphany'. This is what
we've been waiting for for the past two years? boghmoHtah HuDmey; tugh boghpu'
Qoghhom nuSlu'bogh! (Parturiunt montes; nascitur ridiculus mus). When there
are so many outstanding questions on vocabulary and, more importantly, grammar,
I am very, very disappointed that Okrand has, again, left us wanting.
The second is Prochel's article, forbidding VERB+ghach. Given that I've gotten
a lot of capital (not to mention a bit of verse translation) invested in
VERB+ghach, and given that Prochel himself has been responsible for not a few
linguistic howlers in HolQeD (as organiser of the Summer Camp, he was
probably responsible for our favourite coining, "majghoS"), I did not take
kindly to his flames against people who have been using VERB+ghach. In
any case, I'd like some debate on this issue, before I go off and revise all
my text. TKD doesn't *forbid* VERB+ghach, but it does strongly suggest
VERB+taHghach is the way to go. Any willing pabpo' here want to make an
edict I could live with? ;) Btw, Prochel's comments about tlhobtaHghach
being 'unpoetic' for "question" (and as the Appendix vocab will tell you,
"tlhob" means 'ask' as in 'request'; to ask a question is "yu'") are childish;
Klingon isn't English, it's just Klingon, and if it's word for question
turns out to be three syllables, all the better --- it's been getting a
bit telegraphese.
== == == == == == == == == == == == == == == == == == == ==
Nick Nicholas, Breather {le'o ko na rivbi fi'inai palci je tolvri danlu}
nsn@krang.vis.mu.oz.au -- Miguel Cervantes tr. Jorge LLambias
