[112306] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] If only we could use twice to say..
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Ed Bailey)
Wed Mar 20 22:30:49 2019
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
In-Reply-To: <CA+7zAmOitHCnw=-bqb+unZP_LJjopbqngGmJ2Ag6dqtufUgj9w@mail.gmail.com>
From: Ed Bailey <bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 22:31:16 -0400
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
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On Wed, Mar 20, 2019 at 7:02 PM De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, 20 Mar 2019 at 18:04, Ed Bailey <bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Mar 20, 2019 at 4:55 AM De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, 19 Mar 2019 at 21:07, Ed Bailey <bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> No surprises on the use of* -logh* in MKE: It says *Duj ghajchugh
>>>> vay, cha'logh boq'egh qav'ap motlh; chen qav'ap le'. ghajwI'vaD qav'ap le'
>>>> yIDIl.* "If owned, pay owner twice the rental to which they are
>>>> otherwise entitled."
>>>>
>>>> (But it is proof that actual numbers aren't required in arithmetic
>>>> expressions; as one might expect, it's possible to insert a word like
>>>> *qav'ap* that has some numeric value that may be unspecified.
>>>> Also, something I hadn't noticed before: evidently *DIl* can be used
>>>> to mean "pay (the amount paid)," and not just the gloss of "pay for,"
>>>>
>>>
>>> How so? {qav'ap} "rent" is a thing that you pay for. You're paying for
>>> rent, not for the amount of the rent (though this happens to be how much
>>> you have to pay).
>>>
>>
>> The translation on the card makes it clear the amount paid is the thing
>> that's being doubled. I have heard "rental" (but never "rent") used as a
>> noun to mean the thing paid for, i.e. the use of a property for a period of
>> time, but that's not what the Monopoly card means.
>>
>
> The expression "pay the rental" is a common shorthand for "pay the rental
> fee". {qav'ap} is consistently translated as "rent" on the property cards.
> I think you're being misled by the translation, because the English word
> "pay" can mean both "pay for" and "pay out". The fact that the fee you have
> to pay *for* is doubled means that the amount you have to pay *out* is also
> doubled, but it does not mean that the same verb is necessarily used for
> both.
>
>
>> If it meant the thing you pay for is doubled, you'd get to stay an extra
>> turn, right?
>>
>
> No, the rental fee being doubled just means you're paying twice as much as
> you normally would.
>
> This is what it says on the ship card:
>
> {qa'vap}: 25
> {2 Dujmey lughajlu'chugh}: 50
>
> rent: 25
> if two vessels are owned: 50
>
> There's no implication that the fee being doubled means anything other
> than that you pay double the amount for the same service.
>
This was my point. The thing being doubled, *qav'ap*, is the amount to be
paid, not the thing being paid for. Therefore, the object of *DIl* in
*ghajwI'vaD
qav'ap le' yIDIl* is still the amount paid, not the thing being paid for.
>
>
>> The KLI New Words List gives the gloss as "rent, cost, price, value," all
>> words that indicate an amount of money to pay for a thing or that the
>> amount a thing is supposedly worth.
>>
>
> AFAIK, those definitions were not provided in the game, but is someone's
> guess at what the word means. (That guess may well be right, but they go
> beyond what's actually necessary to explain the usage in the game.) The
> game itself is consistent in using "rent" for {qav'ap} and {nob} as the
> verb to pay out an amount: {qav'ap DIl}, but {vaghmaH QaS nob}. It *may* be
> that you could say {vaghmaH QaS DIl} to say "pay out 50 troops" (rather
> than "pay for 50 troops"), but that is not how it's used in the game. In
> the game, you {DIl} a {qav'ap} by {nob}ing some amount of {QaS}.
>
But here you make a good point that convinces me not to use *DIl* to mean
"pay (money)." Klingon apparently makes a distinction between price as a
specified amount, like *wa''uy' DarSeq*, and price as the idea of an amount
demanded, requested, offered, or agreed upon, called *qav'ap*. You can
equate the two by saying something like *wa''uy' DarSeq 'oH qav'ap'e'* "The
price is one million darseks" but, as you point out, you still *nob* the
specified amount when you *DIl* the price (as the idea of the amount agreed
upon) or when you *DIl* the thing you're buying. I expect *ghogh'ot* "bill"
is also something you *DIl*.
This distinction also appears in English, somewhat differently. With
"price" as its object, "give" can mean either "pay" or "propose," depending
on context and wording: "I gave him the price he asked." "If you want this
car, I'll give you a good price."
~mIp'av
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Mar 20, 2019 at 7:02 PM De'vI=
D <<a href=3D"mailto:de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com">de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com</a=
>> wrote:<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204=
,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, 20 Ma=
r 2019 at 18:04, Ed Bailey <<a href=3D"mailto:bellerophon.modeler@gmail.=
com" target=3D"_blank">bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;borde=
r-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Mar 20, 2019 at 4:55 AM De'vID <<a href=3D"mailto=
:de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com</a>>=
wrote:<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)=
;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><=
/div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">O=
n Tue, 19 Mar 2019 at 21:07, Ed Bailey <<a href=3D"mailto:bellerophon.mo=
deler@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com</a>> wr=
ote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">No surprises on the use of<b> -logh</b> in MKE: It s=
ays <b>Duj ghajchugh vay,=C2=A0cha'logh boq'egh qav'ap motlh; c=
hen qav'ap le'.=C2=A0ghajwI'vaD qav'ap le' yIDIl.</b>=
=C2=A0"If owned, pay owner twice the rental to which they are otherwis=
e entitled."<div><b><br></b><div>(But it is proof that actual numbers =
aren't required in arithmetic expressions; as one might expect, it'=
s possible to insert a word like <b>qav'ap</b> that has some numeric va=
lue that may be unspecified.</div><div>Also, something I hadn't noticed=
before: evidently=C2=A0<b>DIl</b> can be used to mean "pay (the amoun=
t paid)," and not just the gloss of "pay for," </div></div><=
/div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>How so? {qav'ap} "rent=
" is a thing that you pay for. You're paying for rent, not for the=
amount of the rent (though this happens to be how much you have to pay).</=
div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The translation on t=
he card makes it clear the amount paid is the thing that's being double=
d. I have heard "rental" (but never "rent") used as a n=
oun to mean the thing paid for, i.e. the use of a property for a period of =
time, but that's not what the Monopoly card means.</div></div></div></b=
lockquote><div><br></div><div>The expression "pay the rental" is =
a common shorthand for "pay the rental fee". {qav'ap} is cons=
istently translated as "rent" on the property cards. I think you&=
#39;re being misled by the translation, because the English word "pay&=
quot; can mean both "pay for" and "pay out". The fact t=
hat the fee you have to pay *for* is doubled means that the amount you have=
to pay *out* is also doubled, but it does not mean that the same verb is n=
ecessarily used for both.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,=
204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div> If=
it meant the thing you pay for is doubled, you'd get to stay an extra =
turn, right? </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>No, the ren=
tal fee being doubled just means you're paying twice as much as you nor=
mally would.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>This is what it says on the shi=
p card:</div><div><br></div><div>{qa'vap}: 25</div><div>{2 Dujmey lugha=
jlu'chugh}: 50</div><div><br></div><div>rent: 25</div><div>if two vesse=
ls are owned: 50</div><div><br></div><div>There's no implication that t=
he fee being doubled means anything other than that you pay double the amou=
nt for the same service.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>=
This was my point. The thing being doubled,=C2=A0<b>qav'ap</b>,=C2=A0is=
the amount to be paid, not the thing being paid for.=C2=A0Therefore, the o=
bject of=C2=A0<b>DIl</b>=C2=A0in=C2=A0<b>ghajwI'vaD qav'ap le' =
yIDIl</b>=C2=A0is still the amount paid, not the thing being paid for.<br><=
/div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote=
"><div>The KLI New Words List gives the gloss as "rent, cost, price, v=
alue," all words that indicate an amount of money to pay for a thing o=
r that the amount a thing is supposedly worth.</div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><div><br></div>AFAIK, those definitions were not provide=
d in the game, but is someone's guess at what the word means. (That gue=
ss may well be right, but they go beyond what's actually necessary to e=
xplain the usage in the game.) The game itself is consistent in using "=
;rent" for {qav'ap} and {nob} as the verb to pay out an amount: {q=
av'ap DIl}, but {vaghmaH QaS nob}. It *may* be that you could say {vagh=
maH QaS DIl} to say "pay out 50 troops" (rather than "pay fo=
r 50 troops"), but that is not how it's used in the game. In the g=
ame, you {DIl} a {qav'ap} by {nob}ing some amount of {QaS}.<br clear=3D=
"all"></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>But here you make a good point=
that convinces me not to use <b>DIl</b> to mean "pay (money)." K=
lingon apparently makes a distinction between price as a specified amount, =
like <b>wa''uy' DarSeq</b>, and price as the idea of an amount =
demanded, requested, offered, or agreed upon, called <b>qav'ap</b>. You=
can equate=C2=A0the two by saying something like=C2=A0<b>wa''uy=
9; DarSeq 'oH qav'ap'e'</b>=C2=A0"The price is one mil=
lion darseks" but, as you point out, you still <b>nob</b> the specifie=
d amount when you <b>DIl</b> the price (as the idea of the amount agreed up=
on) or when you=C2=A0<b>DIl</b> the thing you're buying. I expect=C2=A0=
<b>ghogh'ot</b>=C2=A0"bill" is also something you=C2=A0<b>DIl=
</b>.</div><div><br></div><div>This distinction also appears in English, so=
mewhat differently. With "price" as its object, "give" =
can mean either "pay" or "propose," depending on contex=
t and wording: "I gave him the price he asked." "If you want=
this car, I'll give you a good price."</div><div><br></div><div>~=
mIp'av</div></div></div>
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