[112205] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] -meH with -pu'/-ta'
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (SuStel)
Wed Mar 13 12:03:34 2019
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
From: SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2019 12:03:31 -0400
In-Reply-To: <BL0PR11MB3379AACEFFF8C358B0A8854CC14A0@BL0PR11MB3379.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--===============2800299785579083185==
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="------------9BDF98FBAC830605495728E4"
Content-Language: en-US
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------9BDF98FBAC830605495728E4
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 3/13/2019 11:37 AM, Steven Boozer wrote:
> I don’t find it quite as odd as Sustel does. I read {vIghro' tIQ
> vIje'ta'meH} as “In order for me to have (successfully) purchased the
> ancient cat”, although I probably wouldn’t have used an aspect suffix
> myself. E.g. providing some context: In order for me to have
> purchased the cat, I would have needed to use a credit card (which I
> didn’t have with me at the time).
It's not the perfective on the purpose clause I find odd, it's the
situation that the sentence is describing that didn't seem to match the
perfective.
/In order to buy the ancient cat, I sacrificed all my money./
The sentence is being uttered at a point after the money is sacrificed —
the wasting is completed. But in the act of sacrificing, the purpose was
to buy, not to already have bought, a cat. Hence, *vIghro' **vIje'meH
Huch vI'anmoHpu' *(simplified for brevity).
Your sentence presents an irrealis: *vIghro' vIje'ta'meH Huch
vI'anmoH**pu'*/In order to have bought the cat, I [would have]
sacrificed money./ I don't know that this is going to be interpreted as
rrealis by Klingons; the only irrealis we really know anything about is
formed with *net jalchugh.* You might get it by saying something like
*vIghro' vIje'ta' net jalchugh, vIje'meH Huch vI'anmoHpu'*/If I had
bought the cat, to buy it I would have sacrificed money./
I think trying to put perfective on the purpose clause here is to
attempt time travel, where my current action causes an already-completed
action. If you can say *vIghro' vIje'meH Huch vI'anmoHpu'*/to buy the
cat I sacrificed money,/ and you apparently can, then what exactly does
adding perfective to the purpose clause do? Maybe *vIje'ta'meH* means
/so that I close the deal?/
--
SuStel
http://trimboli.name
--------------9BDF98FBAC830605495728E4
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/13/2019 11:37 AM, Steven Boozer
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:BL0PR11MB3379AACEFFF8C358B0A8854CC14A0@BL0PR11MB3379.namprd11.prod.outlook.com"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I
don’t find it quite as odd as Sustel does. I read {vIghro' tIQ
vIje'ta'meH} as “In order for me to have (successfully)
purchased the ancient cat”, although I probably wouldn’t have
used an aspect suffix myself. E.g. providing some context: In
order for me to have purchased the cat, I would have needed to
use a credit card (which I didn’t have with me at the time).</span></blockquote>
<p>It's not the perfective on the purpose clause I find odd, it's
the situation that the sentence is describing that didn't seem to
match the perfective.</p>
<p><i>In order to buy the ancient cat, I sacrificed all my money.</i></p>
<p>The sentence is being uttered at a point after the money is
sacrificed — the wasting is completed. But in the act of
sacrificing, the purpose was to buy, not to already have bought, a
cat. Hence, <b>vIghro' </b><b>vIje'meH Huch vI'anmoHpu' </b>(simplified
for brevity).</p>
<p>Your sentence presents an irrealis: <b>vIghro' vIje'ta'meH Huch
vI'anmoH</b><b>pu'</b><i> In order to have bought the cat, I
[would have] sacrificed money.</i> I don't know that this is
going to be interpreted as rrealis by Klingons; the only irrealis
we really know anything about is formed with <b>net jalchugh.</b>
You might get it by saying something like <b>vIghro' vIje'ta' net
jalchugh, vIje'meH Huch vI'anmoHpu'</b><i> If I had bought the
cat, to buy it I would have sacrificed money.</i></p>
<p>I think trying to put perfective on the purpose clause here is to
attempt time travel, where my current action causes an
already-completed action. If you can say <b>vIghro' vIje'meH Huch
vI'anmoHpu'</b><i> to buy the cat I sacrificed money,</i> and
you apparently can, then what exactly does adding perfective to
the purpose clause do? Maybe <b>vIje'ta'meH</b> means <i>so that
I close the deal?</i><br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
</body>
</html>
--------------9BDF98FBAC830605495728E4--
--===============2800299785579083185==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
_______________________________________________
tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
--===============2800299785579083185==--
