[112143] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] A long document
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Will Martin)
Mon Mar 11 09:36:37 2019
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
From: Will Martin <willmartin2@mac.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 09:31:33 -0400
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
In-Reply-To: <80A9C76A-FFCE-4D7A-BF56-B23A0FED473E@dadap.net>
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
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paq=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 =E2=80=98oH. qargh paq. tlhoy lut lengbogh =E2=80=98=
oH SoSnI=E2=80=99 nav QIn=E2=80=99e=E2=80=99.
A verbal speech can be {nI=E2=80=99}, but written words escape the =
experiential element of time. They take time to write and time to read, =
but the words themselves are frozen in time while they remain readable. =
That=E2=80=99s the whole point of writing words.=20
That=E2=80=99s the only reason Deaf people learn English. American Sign =
Language (ASL) doesn=E2=80=99t have a written language of its own. =
Signed English (perversions of ASL invented to encode English into =
gestures) takes too long to communicate, and ignores the spacial =
advantages of expressive capacity in visual space of signing, which is =
why Deaf people hate Signed English. It=E2=80=99s also why they never =
developed a written language for ASL. Writing is not 3-D. Signing is. =
Spoken language is not 3-D. Signing is.
ASL has one word for =E2=80=9Cgive/take=E2=80=9D with the direction of =
the sign telling you which word it represents. You give someone =
directions to the bathroom or to the bus station by building a mimed, =
3-D map, starting with a commonly known landmark, with a set of half a =
dozen hand shapes to represent the landmarks and the relationships =
between them. Time and distance gestures have facial expression =
modifiers to give a sense of scale.
My point is that words that describe physical or temporal dimension =
apply to the medium, not to the symbolic content. For the quantity of =
symbolic content, I=E2=80=99d use the suffixes {-=E2=80=98a=E2=80=99} =
and {-Hom}, though they primarily apply to significance, as opposed to =
quantity of words. If you had a digital recording of an insignificant =
speech with many words, it would probably be {mu=E2=80=99mey law=E2=80=99 =
ghajbogh SoQHom=E2=80=99e'}. The Gettysburg Address would be {mu=E2=80=99m=
ey puS ghajbogh SoQ=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99=E2=80=99e'}=20
My cousin was in charge of the field repair manual for the M1 tank. The =
manual was on microfiche. It wasn=E2=80=99t very big, though the reader =
took up some space in the tank.
A general wanted the manual to be on paper, until it was pointed out =
that, printed on 8.5=E2=80=9Dx11=E2=80=9D newsprint-thin paper, the =
manual would be 18=E2=80=99 thick. Many words. Many pictures. And it=E2=80=
=99s a reference manual. NOBODY would read the whole thing. But on =
microfiche it was quite small.
charghwI=E2=80=99 vaghnerya=E2=80=99ngan
rInpa=E2=80=99 bomnIS be=E2=80=99=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 pI=E2=80=99.
> On Mar 11, 2019, at 7:49 AM, Daniel Dadap <daniel@dadap.net> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> On Mar 11, 2019, at 04:21, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com =
<mailto:de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com>> wrote:
>=20
>> For a {tetlh} or {Qumran}, {tIq} might be appropriate.
>=20
> Hmm. I was mainly thinking of transcribed speech or prose written in a =
very speech-like style. (I guess a recipe isn=E2=80=99t necessarily =
that; I was just being a little silly. But maybe Grandma has a =
particular style when it comes to writing down recipes.) I hadn=E2=80=99t =
really thought of {tetlh}. I wonder if {tIn} would work for a {tetlh}. =
Can {tIn} be used for things that are large without being physically =
large?
>=20
> I agree that {paq tIq} sounds like a book with uneven physical =
dimensions.
>=20
>> On Mar 11, 2019, at 03:52, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de =
<mailto:levinius@gmx.de>> wrote:
>>=20
>> But i'm not sure one would say that the bible, as an example, is a =
{lut tIq}.
>=20
> Well, it=E2=80=99s a {lut tIQ}.
>=20
>> In this case, also remember the quite new word {qargh} which is used =
to describe a "thick book".
>=20
> Ooh, that=E2=80=99s a useful word. I agree that it doesn=E2=80=99t =
generalize, but I think I missed that one when it was revealed, or saw =
it and then forgot it.
> _______________________________________________
> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">paq=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 =E2=80=98oH. qargh paq. tlhoy lut =
lengbogh =E2=80=98oH SoSnI=E2=80=99 nav QIn=E2=80=99e=E2=80=99.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">A verbal speech can be =
{nI=E2=80=99}, but written words escape the experiential element of =
time. They take time to write and time to read, but the words themselves =
are frozen in time while they remain readable. That=E2=80=99s the whole =
point of writing words. </div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">That=E2=80=99s the only reason Deaf =
people learn English. American Sign Language (ASL) doesn=E2=80=99t have =
a written language of its own. Signed English (perversions of ASL =
invented to encode English into gestures) takes too long to communicate, =
and ignores the spacial advantages of expressive capacity in visual =
space of signing, which is why Deaf people hate Signed English. It=E2=80=99=
s also why they never developed a written language for ASL. Writing is =
not 3-D. Signing is. Spoken language is not 3-D. Signing is.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">ASL has one word for =
=E2=80=9Cgive/take=E2=80=9D with the direction of the sign telling you =
which word it represents. You give someone directions to the bathroom or =
to the bus station by building a mimed, 3-D map, starting with a =
commonly known landmark, with a set of half a dozen hand shapes to =
represent the landmarks and the relationships between them. Time and =
distance gestures have facial expression modifiers to give a sense of =
scale.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">My =
point is that words that describe physical or temporal dimension apply =
to the medium, not to the symbolic content. For the quantity of symbolic =
content, I=E2=80=99d use the suffixes {-=E2=80=98a=E2=80=99} and {-Hom}, =
though they primarily apply to significance, as opposed to quantity of =
words. If you had a digital recording of an insignificant speech with =
many words, it would probably be {mu=E2=80=99mey law=E2=80=99 ghajbogh =
SoQHom=E2=80=99e'}. The Gettysburg Address would be {mu=E2=80=99mey puS =
ghajbogh SoQ=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99=E2=80=99e'} </div><div class=3D""><br=
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">My cousin was in charge of the field =
repair manual for the M1 tank. The manual was on microfiche. It wasn=E2=80=
=99t very big, though the reader took up some space in the =
tank.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">A =
general wanted the manual to be on paper, until it was pointed out that, =
printed on 8.5=E2=80=9Dx11=E2=80=9D newsprint-thin paper, the manual =
would be 18=E2=80=99 thick. Many words. Many pictures. And it=E2=80=99s =
a reference manual. NOBODY would read the whole thing. But on microfiche =
it was quite small.</div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;">charghwI=E2=80=99 vaghnerya=E2=80=99ngan<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">rInpa=E2=80=99 bomnIS be=E2=80=99=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 =
pI=E2=80=99.</div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Mar 11, 2019, at 7:49 AM, Daniel Dadap <<a =
href=3D"mailto:daniel@dadap.net" class=3D"">daniel@dadap.net</a>> =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">On Mar 11, 2019, at 04:21, De'vID <<a =
href=3D"mailto:de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">For a {tetlh} or {Qumran}, {tIq} might be =
appropriate.</div></blockquote><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">Hmm. I was =
mainly thinking of transcribed speech or prose written in a very =
speech-like style. (I guess a recipe isn=E2=80=99t necessarily that; I =
was just being a little silly. But maybe Grandma has a particular style =
when it comes to writing down recipes.) I hadn=E2=80=99t really thought =
of {tetlh}. I wonder if {tIn} would work for a {tetlh}. Can {tIn} be =
used for things that are large without being physically large?</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I agree that {paq tIq} =
sounds like a book with uneven physical dimensions.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><font class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" =
class=3D""></span></font></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" =
class=3D""></span></div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""></div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class=3D"">On Mar =
11, 2019, at 03:52, Lieven L. Litaer <<a =
href=3D"mailto:levinius@gmx.de" class=3D"">levinius@gmx.de</a>> =
wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></span></div><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" =
class=3D"">But i'm not sure one would say that the bible, as an example, =
is a {lut tIq}.<br class=3D""></span></div></blockquote><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">Well, it=E2=80=
=99s a {lut tIQ}.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><span style=3D"background-color: =
rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class=3D"">In this case, also remember the =
quite new word {qargh} which is used to describe a "thick =
book".</span></div></blockquote><br class=3D""></div></div><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">Ooh, that=E2=80=99s a useful word. I agree that =
it doesn=E2=80=99t generalize, but I think I missed that one when it was =
revealed, or saw it and then forgot =
it.</div></div>_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">tlhIngan-Hol mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org" =
class=3D"">tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org</a><br =
class=3D"">http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=
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