[112062] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] chevchuqmoH
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Will Martin)
Tue Mar 5 11:00:44 2019
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
From: Will Martin <willmartin2@mac.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2019 11:00:39 -0500
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
In-Reply-To: <CAP7F2cKcPbbJp_FfetzOTR=-KU3mvRZTO1ho70hB7_j6ZMHUXw@mail.gmail.com>
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
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Okay, this looks like we=E2=80=99re suffering from one of those =
definitions=E2=80=A6
Remember {vIH}? In English, you can move (yourself) or you can move =
something else. The same word means both to be in motion, or to cause =
something else to be in motion. Okrand clarified this to say it only =
means =E2=80=9Cto be in motion=E2=80=9D.
Why was this important? Because if you move something else, you =
{vIHmoH}. If {vIH} had meant =E2=80=9Ccause something else to move=E2=80=9D=
, then anything in motion would require {vIH=E2=80=99egh}. We needed to =
know which meaning it had in order to know which instance required which =
suffix.
So, consider {chev}. It is a verb that means =E2=80=9Cto separate=E2=80=9D=
. So, what does that mean in English? It means to cause things to be =
separate.
This is why this gets complicated.
I=E2=80=99d have just said {tlhInganpu=E2=80=99 romuluSnganpu=E2=80=99 =
je chev qeylIS}. Some might argue it should be {romuluSnganpu=E2=80=99vo=E2=
=80=99 tlhInganpu' chev qeylIS.} That probably is better. Either would =
probably work in conversation. The latter is better if there is the =
sense that you are separating something that you want from something =
that you don=E2=80=99t want. You are causing something that you want to =
be separate from something that you don=E2=80=99t want, like getting =
metal from ore, or wheat from chaff.
When you add {-chuqmoH}, it just gets complicated, for no apparent =
reason. You are causing them to cause each other to be separate, instead =
of just causing them to be separate. Maybe there=E2=80=99s a reason to =
want to do that, but I suspect you=E2=80=99ll stray from the concept of =
direct speech, which is apparently a Klingon cultural value. You=E2=80=99r=
e getting a little floral; a little picky and perhaps overly specific. =
If you are seeking to irritate a Klingon, this might work fine.
I wish Okrand had given us a stative verb for {be separate}. That would =
have been more versatile, since it could be used adjectivally, but hey, =
he=E2=80=99s made up a LOT of useful words. I=E2=80=99m thankful enough =
to not give him a hard time over this one.
charghwI=E2=80=99 vaghnerya=E2=80=99ngan
rInpa=E2=80=99 bomnIS be=E2=80=99=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 pI=E2=80=99.
> On Mar 5, 2019, at 9:35 AM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> If we say:
>=20
> {tlhInganpu' romuluSnganpu' chevchuqmoH qeylIS}
>=20
> Then does this mean that "kahless separates the klingons from the =
romulans" ?
>=20
> Or does it mean that:
>=20
> "There is a group of klingons and romulans, kahless takes this group,
> and causes each member (regardless whether he's a klingon or romulan),
> to separate the other member (regardless whether he's a klingon or
> romulan)" ?
>=20
> And don't axe me, what "causes each member to separate the other"
> actually means, because I don't know.
>=20
> ~ changan qIj
> _______________________________________________
> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Okay, this looks like we=E2=80=99re suffering from one of =
those definitions=E2=80=A6</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Remember {vIH}? In English, you can move (yourself) or you =
can move something else. The same word means both to be in motion, or to =
cause something else to be in motion. Okrand clarified this to say it =
only means =E2=80=9Cto be in motion=E2=80=9D.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Why was this important? Because if you =
move something else, you {vIHmoH}. If {vIH} had meant =E2=80=9Ccause =
something else to move=E2=80=9D, then anything in motion would require =
{vIH=E2=80=99egh}. We needed to know which meaning it had in order to =
know which instance required which suffix.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">So, consider {chev}. It is a verb that =
means =E2=80=9Cto separate=E2=80=9D. So, what does that mean in English? =
It means to cause things to be separate.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This is why this gets =
complicated.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I=E2=80=99d have just said {tlhInganpu=E2=80=99 =
romuluSnganpu=E2=80=99 je chev qeylIS}. Some might argue it should be =
{romuluSnganpu=E2=80=99vo=E2=80=99 tlhInganpu' chev qeylIS.} That =
probably is better. Either would probably work in conversation. The =
latter is better if there is the sense that you are separating something =
that you want from something that you don=E2=80=99t want. You are =
causing something that you want to be separate from something that you =
don=E2=80=99t want, like getting metal from ore, or wheat from =
chaff.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">When =
you add {-chuqmoH}, it just gets complicated, for no apparent reason. =
You are causing them to cause each other to be separate, instead of just =
causing them to be separate. Maybe there=E2=80=99s a reason to want to =
do that, but I suspect you=E2=80=99ll stray from the concept of direct =
speech, which is apparently a Klingon cultural value. You=E2=80=99re =
getting a little floral; a little picky and perhaps overly specific. If =
you are seeking to irritate a Klingon, this might work fine.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I wish Okrand had given =
us a stative verb for {be separate}. That would have been more =
versatile, since it could be used adjectivally, but hey, he=E2=80=99s =
made up a LOT of useful words. I=E2=80=99m thankful enough to not give =
him a hard time over this one.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;">charghwI=E2=80=99 vaghnerya=E2=80=99ngan<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">rInpa=E2=80=99 bomnIS be=E2=80=99=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 =
pI=E2=80=99.</div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Mar 5, 2019, at 9:35 AM, mayqel qunen'oS <<a =
href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" class=3D"">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>> =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">If we say:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">{tlhInganpu' =
romuluSnganpu' chevchuqmoH qeylIS}<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Then =
does this mean that "kahless separates the klingons from the romulans" =
?<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Or does it mean that:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">"There is a group of klingons and romulans, kahless takes =
this group,<br class=3D"">and causes each member (regardless whether =
he's a klingon or romulan),<br class=3D"">to separate the other member =
(regardless whether he's a klingon or<br class=3D"">romulan)" ?<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">And don't axe me, what "causes each member to =
separate the other"<br class=3D"">actually means, because I don't =
know.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">~ changan qIj<br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">tlhIngan-Hol mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org" =
class=3D"">tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org</a><br =
class=3D"">http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=
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