[111697] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Klingon Word of the Day: puqloD
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIE3DvGxsZXI=?=)
Tue Oct 24 07:00:50 2017
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
In-Reply-To: <CAP7F2cKdxx+z=tjQROsGJasxeMO+gJ6vJHGSBTrMLQKgEA0W6A@mail.gmail.com>
From: =?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIE3DvGxsZXI=?= <esperantist@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 12:44:27 +0200
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
--===============1257339913631235308==
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114bc0f695c2eb055c489fba"
--001a114bc0f695c2eb055c489fba
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I tried reading it without looking at the translation and I get: "For my
son to act like a warrior, I taught him wrong; I realize that now." which
is what I think the sentence indicated.
The missunderstanding arises from the ambiguity of scope of modifying
suffixes like -Ha', -be', -vIp, etc. Is it the "teaching him to become a
warrior" that failed (-Ha'), or is it the "miss-teaching" that was done in
order for his son to become a warrior? Context is king.
Another example:
{qanuQmeH jIjatlhbe'.}
This is ambiguous, in my opinion, because the scope of the negation is not
clear. There are two readings:
a) I didn't say anything. I did that, because I want to annoy you. (i.e.
you would have prefered I say something)
b) I didn't say anything that could annoy you. (i.e. I didn't insult or
bother you)
The English "I didn't say anything to annoy you." is similarly ambiguous.
- Andr=C3=A9
2017-10-24 11:05 GMT+02:00 mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com>:
> *> SuvwI' DameH puqloDwI' vIghojHa'moH DaH 'e' vItlhoj*
>
> > I see now, I have failed to raise my son a man (PB)
>
>
> If I read that sentence without knowing the translation beforehand, I
> would understand that "purposefully I misraised my son, in order to behav=
e
> as a warrior".
>
>
> ~ nIghma'
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 23, 2017 18:21, "Steven Boozer" <sboozer@uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
>> Klingon word: puqloD
>>
>> Part of speech: noun
>>
>> Definition: son
>>
>> Source: TKD
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>> *wa' jaj 'etlh 'uchchoHlaH tlhIngan puqloD*;* jajvetlh loD nen moj*
>>
>> The son of a Klingon is a man the day he can first hold a blade. TKW
>>
>> *qaStaHvIS wej puq poHmey vav puqloDpu' puqloDpu'chaj je quvHa'moH vav
>> quvHa'ghach*
>>
>> The dishonor of the father dishonors his sons and their sons for three
>> generations. TKW
>>
>> *puqloDwI' le'qu', Hoch jaj choquvmoH *
>>
>> My dearest son, each day you redeem me. (Frasier)
>>
>> *Qoy qeylIS puqloD*.* Qoy puqbe'pu'*
>>
>> Hear! Sons of Kahless. Hear! Daughters too. (Anthem)
>>
>> *Qo'noS tlhInganpu': qeylIS puqloDpu' puqbe'pu' je. *
>>
>> Klingons of Kronos: sons and daughters of Kahless. ('u'-MTK)
>>
>> *yatlh luqara' puqloD wa'DIch qenglI'*
>>
>> Lukara, pregnant of their first-born son (PB)
>>
>>
>> *SuvwI' DameH puqloDwI' vIghojHa'moH DaH 'e' vItlhoj*
>>
>> I see now, I have failed to raise my son a man (PB)
>>
>> LANGUAGE NOTES:
>>
>> (KGT 198f.) ... a parent may address a son as *puqloDoy* and a daughter
>> as *puqbe'oy*. As with the terms for parents, the -*oy* form is seldom
>> used past the child's Age of Ascension.
>>
>> (KGT 197): It is always proper to call somebody by his or her name
>> alone... During formal occasions, it is also not uncommon to refer to
>> someone by his or her father's name, such as *mogh puqloD* (*son of Mogh=
*)
>> or a combination of given name plus father's name, such as *HuS 'atrom
>> puqbe'* (*Huss*, *daughter of A'trom*).
>>
>>
>> (st.k 9/1997): If you want to be even more formal, the name of the
>> father may be used as well... "Kahlor, son of Kahlin, of the House of
>> Molor" is "Kahlor, son of Kahlin, House of Molor" *qeylor qeylIn puqloD
>> molor tuq*."
>>
>> (KGT 182): For example, in the ceremony to induct new members into the
>> Order of the *Bat'leth* (*betleH 'obe'*), the highest honor that the
>> government bestows on a Klingon, the presiding official, usually the lea=
der
>> of the Klingon High Council, first reads a name from the *naD tetlh* (*C=
ommendation
>> List*), always calling out the inductee's name in the most formal way
>> (given name plus father's name, such as *tI'vIS barot puqloD* [T'vis,
>> son of Barot]).
>>
>> CULTURAL NOTES:
>>
>> The Klingon law of heredity (**g'now** juk Hol pajhard** =E2=80=9C*A son=
shall
>> share in the honors or crimes of his father=E2=80=9D*) would have requir=
ed the
>> execution of Worf and his brother Kurn for the treachery of their father=
,
>> Mogh, had not those charges proven false. (*cf. *TNG "Redemption I")
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Voragh
>> *Ca'Non Master of the Klingons*
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
>> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
>> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
>
>
--001a114bc0f695c2eb055c489fba
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div><div><div><div>I tried reading it with=
out looking at the translation and I get: "For my son to act like a wa=
rrior, I taught him wrong; I realize that now." which is what I think =
the sentence indicated.<br><br></div>The missunderstanding arises from the =
ambiguity of scope of modifying suffixes like -Ha', -be', -vIp, etc=
. Is it the "teaching him to become a warrior" that failed (-Ha&#=
39;), or is it the "miss-teaching" that was done in order for his=
son to become a warrior? Context is king.<br><br></div>Another example:<br=
>{qanuQmeH jIjatlhbe'.}<br><br></div>This is ambiguous, in my opinion, =
because the scope of the negation is not clear. There are two readings:<br>=
</div>a) I didn't say anything. I did that, because I want to annoy you=
. (i.e. you would have prefered I say something)<br></div>b) I didn't s=
ay anything that could annoy you. (i.e. I didn't insult or bother you)<=
br><br></div>The English "I didn't say anything to annoy you."=
; is similarly ambiguous.<br><br></div>- Andr=C3=A9<br></div><div class=3D"=
gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2017-10-24 11:05 GMT+02:00 mayq=
el qunenoS <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><span class=3D""><p style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif"><b>> SuvwI' DameH p=
uqloDwI' vIghojHa'moH DaH 'e' vItlhoj</b><u></u><u></u></p>=
<p style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans=
-serif">> I see now, I have failed to raise my son a man =C2=A0(PB)</p><=
p style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-=
serif"><br></p></span><p style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:calibri,sans-serif">If I read that sentence without knowing the t=
ranslation beforehand, I would understand that "purposefully I misrais=
ed my son, in order to behave as a warrior".</p><p style=3D"margin:0in=
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif"><br></p><p sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif=
">~ nIghma'</p><p style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:calibri,sans-serif"><br></p><p style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif"><br></p></div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div class=3D"h5">On Oct 23, 2=
017 18:21, "Steven Boozer" <<a href=3D"mailto:sboozer@uchicago=
.edu" target=3D"_blank">sboozer@uchicago.edu</a>> wrote:<br type=3D"attr=
ibution"></div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 =
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72" lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"m_4754990079212413072m_2246258057295354033WordSection1">
<p class=3D"m_4754990079212413072m_2246258057295354033MsoPlainText">Klingon=
word: puqloD<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_4754990079212413072m_2246258057295354033MsoPlainText">Part of=
speech: noun<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_4754990079212413072m_2246258057295354033MsoPlainText">Definit=
ion: son<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_4754990079212413072m_2246258057295354033MsoPlainText">Source:=
TKD<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_4754990079212413072m_2246258057295354033MsoPlainText">_______=
_______________________<wbr>_________________<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_4754990079212413072m_2246258057295354033MsoPlainText"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_4754990079212413072m_2246258057295354033MsoPlainText"><b>wa&#=
39; jaj 'etlh 'uchchoHlaH tlhIngan puqloD</b>;<b> jajvetlh loD nen =
moj</b>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_4754990079212413072m_2246258057295354033MsoPlainText">The son=
of a Klingon is a man the day he can first hold a blade. TKW<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_4754990079212413072m_2246258057295354033MsoPlainText"><b>qaSt=
aHvIS wej puq poHmey vav puqloDpu' puqloDpu'chaj je quvHa'moH v=
av quvHa'ghach</b>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_4754990079212413072m_2246258057295354033MsoPlainText">The dis=
honor of the father dishonors his sons and their sons for three generations=
. TKW<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_4754990079212413072m_2246258057295354033MsoPlainText"><b>puql=
oDwI' le'qu', Hoch jaj choquvmoH <u></u><u></u></b></p>
<p class=3D"m_4754990079212413072m_2246258057295354033MsoPlainText">My dear=
est son, each day you redeem me. (Frasier)<br>
<br>
<b><u></u><u></u></b></p>
<p class=3D"m_4754990079212413072m_2246258057295354033MsoPlainText"><b>Qoy =
qeylIS puqloD</b>.<b> Qoy puqbe'pu'</b> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_4754990079212413072m_2246258057295354033MsoPlainText">Hear! S=
ons of Kahless. Hear! Daughters too. (Anthem)<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_4754990079212413072m_2246258057295354033MsoPlainText"><b>Qo&#=
39;noS tlhInganpu': qeylIS puqloDpu' puqbe'pu' je. <u></u>
<u></u></b></p>
<p class=3D"m_4754990079212413072m_2246258057295354033MsoPlainText">Klingon=
s of Kronos: sons and daughters of Kahless. ('u'-MTK)<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_4754990079212413072m_2246258057295354033MsoPlainText"><b>yatl=
h luqara' puqloD wa'DIch qenglI'</b> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_4754990079212413072m_2246258057295354033MsoPlainText">Lukara,=
pregnant of their first-born son =C2=A0(PB)<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_4754990079212413072m_2246258057295354033MsoPlainText"><br>
<b>SuvwI' DameH puqloDwI' vIghojHa'moH DaH 'e' vItlhoj<=
/b> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_4754990079212413072m_2246258057295354033MsoPlainText">I see n=
ow, I have failed to raise my son a man =C2=A0(PB)<br>
<br>
<span style=3D"color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4754990079212413072m_2246258057295354033MsoPlainText"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:black">LANGUAGE NOTES:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4754990079212413072m_2246258057295354033MsoPlainText">(KGT 19=
8f.)=C2=A0 ... a parent may address a son as <b>puqloDoy</b> and a daughter=
as
<b>puqbe'oy</b>. As with the terms for parents, the -<b>oy</b> form is =
seldom used past the child's Age of Ascension.<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_4754990079212413072m_2246258057295354033MsoPlainText">(KGT 19=
7):=C2=A0 It is always proper to call somebody by his or her name alone... =
During formal occasions, it is also not uncommon to refer to someone by his=
or her father's name, such as
<b>mogh puqloD</b> (<i>son of Mogh</i>) or a combination of given name plus=
father's name, such as
<b>HuS 'atrom puqbe'</b> (<i>Huss</i>, <i>daughter of A'trom</i=
>).<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_4754990079212413072m_2246258057295354033MsoPlainText"><br>
(st.k 9/1997):=C2=A0 If you want to be even more formal, the name of the fa=
ther may be used as well... "Kahlor, son of Kahlin, of the House of Mo=
lor" is "Kahlor, son of Kahlin, House of Molor"
<b>qeylor qeylIn puqloD molor tuq</b>." <br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_4754990079212413072m_2246258057295354033MsoPlainText">=C2=A0(=
KGT 182): <b>=C2=A0</b>For example, in the ceremony to induct new members i=
nto the Order of the
<i>Bat'leth</i> (<b>betleH 'obe'</b>), the highest honor that t=
he government bestows on a Klingon, the presiding official, usually the lea=
der of the Klingon High Council, first reads a name from the
<b>naD tetlh</b> (<i>Commendation List</i>), always calling out the inducte=
e's name in the most formal way (given name plus father's name, suc=
h as
<b>tI'vIS barot puqloD</b> [T'vis, son of Barot]).<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_4754990079212413072m_2246258057295354033MsoPlainText">CULTURA=
L NOTES:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_4754990079212413072m_2246258057295354033MsoPlainText">The Kli=
ngon law of heredity (<span>*</span><b><i>g'now</i></b><i>
<b>juk Hol pajhard*</b></i> =E2=80=9C<i>A son shall share in the honors or =
crimes of his father=E2=80=9D</i>) would have required the execution of Wor=
f and his brother Kurn for the treachery of their father, Mogh, had not tho=
se charges proven false. (<i>cf.
</i>TNG "Redemption I")<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">--<br>
Voragh<br>
<i>Ca'Non Master of the Klingons</i><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#0070c0"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
</div>
</div>
<br></div></div>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
tlhIngan-Hol mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org" target=3D"_blank">tlhIngan-Ho=
l@lists.kli.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org" rel=3D"n=
oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.<wbr>cgi/tlhinga=
n-hol-kli.org</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div></div>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
tlhIngan-Hol mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org">tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org</a=
><br>
<a href=3D"http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org" rel=3D"n=
oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.<wbr>cgi/tlhinga=
n-hol-kli.org</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
--001a114bc0f695c2eb055c489fba--
--===============1257339913631235308==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
_______________________________________________
tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
--===============1257339913631235308==--
