[111364] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Is Star Trek: Discovery a new canon category?
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (qurgh lungqIj)
Tue Oct 3 04:35:58 2017
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
In-Reply-To: <CABDLMbXr51wB_YJR5-Yhd=POgdKWzGmckXoW_fjQh5U6UjTY_g@mail.gmail.com>
From: qurgh lungqIj <qurgh@wizage.net>
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2017 10:30:55 -0400
To: "tlhIngan-Hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
--===============4739162943065059937==
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114a4cf2fc002f055a9138bb"
--001a114a4cf2fc002f055a9138bb
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
iPhone users can use Hol 'ampaS on their phone's browser (http://hol.kag.or=
g).
It works well and has most of the same (and more) features as boQwI' does.
qurgh
On Oct 2, 2017 9:48 AM, "Andr=C3=A9 M=C3=BCller" <esperantist@gmail.com> wr=
ote:
> I also agree with mayqel, that boQwI' is an amazing tool. I think part of
> the new downloads is also due to me advertising the app in my Klingon
> courses in Switzerland. When someone asked me for the translation of a
> difficult word in the course, and I had to look it up on my computer
> dictionary, another participant already found it in boQwI'.
>
> Unfortunately it doesn't exist for iPhone, many of my students (maybe 60%=
)
> use iPhone.
>
> By the way, I didn't see where I can activate or deactivate usage
> statistics in the app on my phone? Isn't it in the preferences? Maybe I
> overlooked it...
>
> And for the cannon vs. non-cannon debate, a bright dangerous-looking
> warning label could be put into the entries or sentences that are not
> cannon, with a very brief but clear warning.
>
> Another idea: If people really like listening to Klingon so much, maybe
> you could add the option to write or copy whole texts into a sort of
> simplified text editor (maybe with the function of marking misspellings o=
r
> non-Klingon words), which than would be read out aloud. People could then
> enter any phrases they come across, on TV, in courses, books, etc.
>
> - Andr=C3=A9
>
> 2017-10-02 10:35 GMT+02:00 De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com>:
>
>>
>> On 11 August 2017 at 02:46, Alan Anderson <qunchuy@alcaco.net> wrote:
>>
>>> How would you answer if YOU were the one providing Klingon translations
>>> for the lines in Discovery scripts?
>>>
>>
>> Well, now that it's been made public that you're Qov's backup translator
>> and you provided some of the lines, that puts your question in a differe=
nt
>> context. :-)
>>
>> On 11 August 2017 at 15:22, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Of people who have opted in to provide app usage statistics, there are
>>> currently over 5000 30-day-active users (meaning people who have
>>> actually used the app within the last 30 days), and over 64000 total
>>> installs. Probably most of these people are casual fans, but at least
>>> some are beginner or intermediate Klingon learners. But in any case,
>>> there are three orders of magnitude more users of {boQwI'} than there
>>> are Klingonists who use it.
>>>
>>
>> Just to give an update on this. There was a 94% increase in downloads of
>> {boQwI'} in the past 7-day period compared to the week before, and a 41%
>> increase for the 30-day period compared to the previous one.
>>
>> Something which I didn't expect was that the episodes have Klingon
>> subtitles, thanks to Lieven. (Only on Netflix, though, so they're not
>> available in the US or Canada, unfortunately). So instead of searching f=
or
>> things in English, users have actually been typing the subtitles *in
>> Klingon* into {boQwI'} to break down their constituent parts.
>>
>> There was another use case which I hadn't anticipated: people are using
>> {boQwI'} to *listen to* the text-to-speech engine repeat the lines spoke=
n
>> on the show. Many people apparently can't understand the spoken Klingon =
in
>> the show even with Klingon subtitles, so they're listening to the
>> TTS-generated version for comparison. (The stats for the TTS downloads a=
re
>> 107% over the last 7-day period, and 74% over the last 30-day.) In other
>> words, the TTS engine is being used as a tool for people to learn to
>> understand spoken Klingon.
>>
>> On 12 August 2017 at 00:58, ghunchu'wI' 'utlh <qunchuy@alcaco.net> wrote=
:
>>
>>> I guess I don't get the point of putting it in boQwI'. If it is proper
>>> Okrandian Klingon, it will be things that are already in the app. If it=
is
>>> not, then it shouldn't be included as an example.
>>
>>
>> If a sentence is included in {boQwI'}, the entry can be annotated to
>> provide a breakdown of its components and grammar. If a sentence isn't
>> included, {boQwI'} will try to analyse it, but it doesn't understand thi=
ngs
>> like homophones (e.g., it will provide both "be quiet" and "exchange,
>> substitute" in its analysis for {yItamchoH!}). Another wrinkle is that t=
he
>> TTS will only speak sentences which are included in the database. It can
>> still speak the individual parts of any sentence which isn't included, b=
ut
>> it just means the user has to listen to each part separately, so it won'=
t
>> flow smoothly.
>>
>> I completely understand and agree with the need to keep Okrandian canon
>> separate from stuff produced by other people. When I originally started
>> {boQwI'}, it was a canon database. But the user base has other ideas. If
>> you joined the Klingon language community early on, and you were lucky
>> enough to be able to attend the qep'a' and converse with other speakers,
>> subscribe to HolQeD, and so on, you may not appreciate how difficult it =
is
>> for a beginner now to pick up all of the vocabulary or develop an ear fo=
r
>> spoken Klingon. There are thousands of people out there who are interest=
ed
>> enough in the spoken Klingon on Discovery to the degree that they're try=
ing
>> to convert what they hear into written Klingon so they can break down th=
e
>> parts and understand them, and I want to make their entry into fully
>> learning Klingon as easy as possible. (I don't want to annoy beginners w=
ith
>> notes about canon they won't understand, but I also don't want to annoy
>> experts by mixing canon and non-canon material, so the DSC stuff will be
>> marked, but not in a very obtrusive way.)
>>
>> I think there's a huge opportunity for the KLI here, to produce with CBS
>> (after the season, or the series, is over) a book of annotated transcrip=
ts
>> for all the Klingon language dialogue in the show, with commentary by Qo=
v
>> and yourself on word choice, grammar, etc., some comments from Marc Okra=
nd,
>> interviews with the Klingon actors and voice coach, a glossary/dictionar=
y
>> in the back collecting the vocabulary used on the show, with lots of glo=
ssy
>> pictures of the cast and language experts. It can accompany the "making =
of"
>> video segment for the Klingon language parts of the show. (I was going t=
o
>> suggest that this could be included in the book as a DVD, but nowadays I
>> guess it should just be streamed online.) There's clearly a market for
>> something like this.
>>
>> --
>> De'vID
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
>> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
>> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
>
>
--001a114a4cf2fc002f055a9138bb
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"auto">iPhone users can use Hol 'ampaS on their phone's =
browser (<a href=3D"http://hol.kag.org">http://hol.kag.org</a>). It works w=
ell and has most of the same (and more) features as boQwI' does.<div di=
r=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">qurgh</div></div><div class=3D"gmail=
_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Oct 2, 2017 9:48 AM, "Andr=
=C3=A9 M=C3=BCller" <<a href=3D"mailto:esperantist@gmail.com">esper=
antist@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div>I also agree with mayqel, tha=
t boQwI' is an amazing tool. I think part of the new downloads is also =
due to me advertising the app in my Klingon courses in Switzerland. When so=
meone asked me for the translation of a difficult word in the course, and I=
had to look it up on my computer dictionary, another participant already f=
ound it in boQwI'.<br><br></div>Unfortunately it doesn't exist for =
iPhone, many of my students (maybe 60%) use iPhone.<br><br></div>By the way=
, I didn't see where I can activate or deactivate usage statistics in t=
he app on my phone? Isn't it in the preferences? Maybe I overlooked it.=
..<br></div><div><br></div><div>And for the cannon vs. non-cannon debate, a=
bright dangerous-looking warning label could be put into the entries or se=
ntences that are not cannon, with a very brief but clear warning.</div><div=
><br></div><div>Another idea: If people really like listening to Klingon so=
much, maybe you could add the option to write or copy whole texts into a s=
ort of simplified text editor (maybe with the function of marking misspelli=
ngs or non-Klingon words), which than would be read out aloud. People could=
then enter any phrases they come across, on TV, in courses, books, etc.<br=
></div><div><br></div>- Andr=C3=A9<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>=
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">2017-10-02 10:35 GMT+02:00 De'vID <span dir=
=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">d=
e.vid.jonpin@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr"><br class=3D"m_-27162528102336157m_-1766435321704715894gmail=
-m_-4619625836520024992gmail-Apple-interchange-newline">On 11 August 2017 a=
t 02:46, Alan Anderson=C2=A0<span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:qunchuy=
@alcaco.net" target=3D"_blank">qunchuy@alcaco.net</a>></span>=C2=A0<wbr>=
wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8=
ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>How would you =
answer if YOU were the one providing Klingon translations for the lines in =
Discovery scripts?<br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D"gm=
ail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Well, now that it's bee=
n made public that you're Qov's backup translator and you provided =
some of the lines, that puts your question in a different context. :-)</div=
><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 11 August 201=
7 at 15:22, De'vID <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:de.vid.jonpi=
n@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote=
:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Of people who have o=
pted in to provide app usage statistics, there are<br>
currently over 5000 30-day-active users (meaning people who have<br>
actually used the app within the last 30 days), and over 64000 total<br>
installs. Probably most of these people are casual fans, but at least<br>
some are beginner or intermediate Klingon learners. But in any case,<br>
there are three orders of magnitude more users of {boQwI'} than there<b=
r>
are Klingonists who use it.<br></blockquote></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra=
"><br></div>Just to give an update on this. There was a 94% increase in dow=
nloads of {boQwI'} in the past 7-day period compared to the week before=
, and a 41% increase for the 30-day period compared to the previous one.</d=
iv><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Somethin=
g which I didn't expect was that the episodes have Klingon subtitles, t=
hanks to Lieven. (Only on Netflix, though, so they're not available in =
the US or Canada, unfortunately). So instead of searching for things in Eng=
lish, users have actually been typing the subtitles *in Klingon* into {boQw=
I'} to break down their constituent parts.</div><div class=3D"gmail_ext=
ra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">There was another use case which I=
hadn't anticipated: people are using {boQwI'} to *listen to* the t=
ext-to-speech engine repeat the lines spoken on the show. Many people appar=
ently can't understand the spoken Klingon in the show even with Klingon=
subtitles, so they're listening to the TTS-generated version for compa=
rison. (The stats for the TTS downloads are 107% over the last 7-day period=
, and 74% over the last 30-day.) In other words, the TTS engine is being us=
ed as a tool for people to learn to understand spoken Klingon.</div><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div><span>On 12 A=
ugust 2017 at 00:58, ghunchu'wI' 'utlh=C2=A0<span dir=3D"ltr">&=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:qunchuy@alcaco.net" target=3D"_blank">qunchuy@alcaco.n=
et</a>></span>=C2=A0wro<wbr>te:<br></span><span><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,2=
04,204);padding-left:1ex">I guess I don't get the point of putting it i=
n boQwI'. If it is proper Okrandian Klingon, it will be things that are=
already in the app. If it is not, then it shouldn't be included as an =
example.</blockquote><div>=C2=A0</div></span></div><div>If a sentence is in=
cluded in {boQwI'}, the entry can be annotated to provide a breakdown o=
f its components and grammar. If a sentence isn't included, {boQwI'=
} will try to analyse it, but it doesn't understand things like homopho=
nes (e.g., it will provide both "be quiet" and "exchange, su=
bstitute" in its analysis for {yItamchoH!}). Another wrinkle is that t=
he TTS will only speak sentences which are included in the database. It can=
still speak the individual parts of any sentence which isn't included,=
but it just means the user has to listen to each part separately, so it wo=
n't flow smoothly.</div><div><br></div><div>I completely understand and=
agree with the need to keep Okrandian canon separate from stuff produced b=
y other people. When I originally started {boQwI'}, it was a canon data=
base. But the user base has other ideas. If you joined the Klingon language=
community early on, and you were lucky enough to be able to attend the qep=
'a' and converse with other speakers, subscribe to HolQeD, and so o=
n, you may not appreciate how difficult it is for a beginner now to pick up=
all of the vocabulary or develop an ear for spoken Klingon. There are thou=
sands of people out there who are interested enough in the spoken Klingon o=
n Discovery to the degree that they're trying to convert what they hear=
into written Klingon so they can break down the parts and understand them,=
and I want to make their entry into fully learning Klingon as easy as poss=
ible. (I don't want to annoy beginners with notes about canon they won&=
#39;t understand, but I also don't want to annoy experts by mixing cano=
n and non-canon material, so the DSC stuff will be marked, but not in a ver=
y obtrusive way.)</div><div><br></div><div>I think there's a huge oppor=
tunity for the KLI here, to produce with CBS (after the season, or the seri=
es, is over) a book of annotated transcripts for all the Klingon language d=
ialogue in the show, with commentary by Qov and yourself on word choice, gr=
ammar, etc., some comments from Marc Okrand, interviews with the Klingon ac=
tors and voice coach, a glossary/dictionary in the back collecting the voca=
bulary used on the show, with lots of glossy pictures of the cast and langu=
age experts. It can accompany the "making of" video segment for t=
he Klingon language parts of the show. (I was going to suggest that this co=
uld be included in the book as a DVD, but nowadays I guess it should just b=
e streamed online.) There's clearly a market for something like this.</=
div><span class=3D"m_-27162528102336157HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div=
><br></div>-- <br><div class=3D"m_-27162528102336157m_-1766435321704715894g=
mail-m_-4619625836520024992gmail_signature">De'vID</div>
</font></span></div></div>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
tlhIngan-Hol mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org" target=3D"_blank">tlhIngan-Ho=
l@lists.kli.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org" rel=3D"n=
oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.<wbr>cgi/tlhinga=
n-hol-kli.org</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
tlhIngan-Hol mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org">tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org</a=
><br>
<a href=3D"http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org" rel=3D"n=
oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.<wbr>cgi/tlhinga=
n-hol-kli.org</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div></div>
--001a114a4cf2fc002f055a9138bb--
--===============4739162943065059937==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
_______________________________________________
tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
--===============4739162943065059937==--
