[111363] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Is Star Trek: Discovery a new canon category?
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIE3DvGxsZXI=?=)
Tue Oct 3 04:35:58 2017
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
In-Reply-To: <CA+7zAmPTDbyPC8mr6RXV2r_DpodH_XOEG2wwMzKpzG4mRv0cSA@mail.gmail.com>
From: =?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIE3DvGxsZXI=?= <esperantist@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2017 15:48:48 +0200
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
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I also agree with mayqel, that boQwI' is an amazing tool. I think part of
the new downloads is also due to me advertising the app in my Klingon
courses in Switzerland. When someone asked me for the translation of a
difficult word in the course, and I had to look it up on my computer
dictionary, another participant already found it in boQwI'.
Unfortunately it doesn't exist for iPhone, many of my students (maybe 60%)
use iPhone.
By the way, I didn't see where I can activate or deactivate usage
statistics in the app on my phone? Isn't it in the preferences? Maybe I
overlooked it...
And for the cannon vs. non-cannon debate, a bright dangerous-looking
warning label could be put into the entries or sentences that are not
cannon, with a very brief but clear warning.
Another idea: If people really like listening to Klingon so much, maybe you
could add the option to write or copy whole texts into a sort of simplified
text editor (maybe with the function of marking misspellings or non-Klingon
words), which than would be read out aloud. People could then enter any
phrases they come across, on TV, in courses, books, etc.
- Andr=C3=A9
2017-10-02 10:35 GMT+02:00 De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com>:
>
> On 11 August 2017 at 02:46, Alan Anderson <qunchuy@alcaco.net> wrote:
>
>> How would you answer if YOU were the one providing Klingon translations
>> for the lines in Discovery scripts?
>>
>
> Well, now that it's been made public that you're Qov's backup translator
> and you provided some of the lines, that puts your question in a differen=
t
> context. :-)
>
> On 11 August 2017 at 15:22, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Of people who have opted in to provide app usage statistics, there are
>> currently over 5000 30-day-active users (meaning people who have
>> actually used the app within the last 30 days), and over 64000 total
>> installs. Probably most of these people are casual fans, but at least
>> some are beginner or intermediate Klingon learners. But in any case,
>> there are three orders of magnitude more users of {boQwI'} than there
>> are Klingonists who use it.
>>
>
> Just to give an update on this. There was a 94% increase in downloads of
> {boQwI'} in the past 7-day period compared to the week before, and a 41%
> increase for the 30-day period compared to the previous one.
>
> Something which I didn't expect was that the episodes have Klingon
> subtitles, thanks to Lieven. (Only on Netflix, though, so they're not
> available in the US or Canada, unfortunately). So instead of searching fo=
r
> things in English, users have actually been typing the subtitles *in
> Klingon* into {boQwI'} to break down their constituent parts.
>
> There was another use case which I hadn't anticipated: people are using
> {boQwI'} to *listen to* the text-to-speech engine repeat the lines spoken
> on the show. Many people apparently can't understand the spoken Klingon i=
n
> the show even with Klingon subtitles, so they're listening to the
> TTS-generated version for comparison. (The stats for the TTS downloads ar=
e
> 107% over the last 7-day period, and 74% over the last 30-day.) In other
> words, the TTS engine is being used as a tool for people to learn to
> understand spoken Klingon.
>
> On 12 August 2017 at 00:58, ghunchu'wI' 'utlh <qunchuy@alcaco.net> wrote:
>
>> I guess I don't get the point of putting it in boQwI'. If it is proper
>> Okrandian Klingon, it will be things that are already in the app. If it =
is
>> not, then it shouldn't be included as an example.
>
>
> If a sentence is included in {boQwI'}, the entry can be annotated to
> provide a breakdown of its components and grammar. If a sentence isn't
> included, {boQwI'} will try to analyse it, but it doesn't understand thin=
gs
> like homophones (e.g., it will provide both "be quiet" and "exchange,
> substitute" in its analysis for {yItamchoH!}). Another wrinkle is that th=
e
> TTS will only speak sentences which are included in the database. It can
> still speak the individual parts of any sentence which isn't included, bu=
t
> it just means the user has to listen to each part separately, so it won't
> flow smoothly.
>
> I completely understand and agree with the need to keep Okrandian canon
> separate from stuff produced by other people. When I originally started
> {boQwI'}, it was a canon database. But the user base has other ideas. If
> you joined the Klingon language community early on, and you were lucky
> enough to be able to attend the qep'a' and converse with other speakers,
> subscribe to HolQeD, and so on, you may not appreciate how difficult it i=
s
> for a beginner now to pick up all of the vocabulary or develop an ear for
> spoken Klingon. There are thousands of people out there who are intereste=
d
> enough in the spoken Klingon on Discovery to the degree that they're tryi=
ng
> to convert what they hear into written Klingon so they can break down the
> parts and understand them, and I want to make their entry into fully
> learning Klingon as easy as possible. (I don't want to annoy beginners wi=
th
> notes about canon they won't understand, but I also don't want to annoy
> experts by mixing canon and non-canon material, so the DSC stuff will be
> marked, but not in a very obtrusive way.)
>
> I think there's a huge opportunity for the KLI here, to produce with CBS
> (after the season, or the series, is over) a book of annotated transcript=
s
> for all the Klingon language dialogue in the show, with commentary by Qov
> and yourself on word choice, grammar, etc., some comments from Marc Okran=
d,
> interviews with the Klingon actors and voice coach, a glossary/dictionary
> in the back collecting the vocabulary used on the show, with lots of glos=
sy
> pictures of the cast and language experts. It can accompany the "making o=
f"
> video segment for the Klingon language parts of the show. (I was going to
> suggest that this could be included in the book as a DVD, but nowadays I
> guess it should just be streamed online.) There's clearly a market for
> something like this.
>
> --
> De'vID
>
> _______________________________________________
> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div>I also agree with mayqel, that boQwI' i=
s an amazing tool. I think part of the new downloads is also due to me adve=
rtising the app in my Klingon courses in Switzerland. When someone asked me=
for the translation of a difficult word in the course, and I had to look i=
t up on my computer dictionary, another participant already found it in boQ=
wI'.<br><br></div>Unfortunately it doesn't exist for iPhone, many o=
f my students (maybe 60%) use iPhone.<br><br></div>By the way, I didn't=
see where I can activate or deactivate usage statistics in the app on my p=
hone? Isn't it in the preferences? Maybe I overlooked it...<br></div><d=
iv><br></div><div>And for the cannon vs. non-cannon debate, a bright danger=
ous-looking warning label could be put into the entries or sentences that a=
re not cannon, with a very brief but clear warning.</div><div><br></div><di=
v>Another idea: If people really like listening to Klingon so much, maybe y=
ou could add the option to write or copy whole texts into a sort of simplif=
ied text editor (maybe with the function of marking misspellings or non-Kli=
ngon words), which than would be read out aloud. People could then enter an=
y phrases they come across, on TV, in courses, books, etc.<br></div><div><b=
r></div>- Andr=C3=A9<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote">2017-10-02 10:35 GMT+02:00 De'vID <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a=
href=3D"mailto:de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">de.vid.jonpin@gm=
ail.com</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<br class=3D"m_-1766435321704715894gmail-m_-4619625836520024992gmail-Apple-=
interchange-newline">On 11 August 2017 at 02:46, Alan Anderson=C2=A0<span d=
ir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:qunchuy@alcaco.net" target=3D"_blank">qunc=
huy@alcaco.net</a>></span>=C2=A0<wbr>wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,20=
4,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote"><div>How would you answer if YOU were the one providin=
g Klingon translations for the lines in Discovery scripts?<br></div></div><=
/div></div></blockquote><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"=
gmail_extra">Well, now that it's been made public that you're Qov&#=
39;s backup translator and you provided some of the lines, that puts your q=
uestion in a different context. :-)</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote">On 11 August 2017 at 15:22, De'vID <span dir=3D=
"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">de.v=
id.jonpin@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204=
);padding-left:1ex">Of people who have opted in to provide app usage statis=
tics, there are<br>
currently over 5000 30-day-active users (meaning people who have<br>
actually used the app within the last 30 days), and over 64000 total<br>
installs. Probably most of these people are casual fans, but at least<br>
some are beginner or intermediate Klingon learners. But in any case,<br>
there are three orders of magnitude more users of {boQwI'} than there<b=
r>
are Klingonists who use it.<br></blockquote></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra=
"><br></div>Just to give an update on this. There was a 94% increase in dow=
nloads of {boQwI'} in the past 7-day period compared to the week before=
, and a 41% increase for the 30-day period compared to the previous one.</d=
iv><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Somethin=
g which I didn't expect was that the episodes have Klingon subtitles, t=
hanks to Lieven. (Only on Netflix, though, so they're not available in =
the US or Canada, unfortunately). So instead of searching for things in Eng=
lish, users have actually been typing the subtitles *in Klingon* into {boQw=
I'} to break down their constituent parts.</div><div class=3D"gmail_ext=
ra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">There was another use case which I=
hadn't anticipated: people are using {boQwI'} to *listen to* the t=
ext-to-speech engine repeat the lines spoken on the show. Many people appar=
ently can't understand the spoken Klingon in the show even with Klingon=
subtitles, so they're listening to the TTS-generated version for compa=
rison. (The stats for the TTS downloads are 107% over the last 7-day period=
, and 74% over the last 30-day.) In other words, the TTS engine is being us=
ed as a tool for people to learn to understand spoken Klingon.</div><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div><span class=
=3D"">On 12 August 2017 at 00:58, ghunchu'wI' 'utlh=C2=A0<span =
dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:qunchuy@alcaco.net" target=3D"_blank">qun=
chuy@alcaco.net</a>></span>=C2=A0<wbr>wrote:<br></span><span class=3D"">=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">I guess I don't get t=
he point of putting it in boQwI'. If it is proper Okrandian Klingon, it=
will be things that are already in the app. If it is not, then it shouldn&=
#39;t be included as an example.</blockquote><div>=C2=A0</div></span></div>=
<div>If a sentence is included in {boQwI'}, the entry can be annotated =
to provide a breakdown of its components and grammar. If a sentence isn'=
;t included, {boQwI'} will try to analyse it, but it doesn't unders=
tand things like homophones (e.g., it will provide both "be quiet"=
; and "exchange, substitute" in its analysis for {yItamchoH!}). A=
nother wrinkle is that the TTS will only speak sentences which are included=
in the database. It can still speak the individual parts of any sentence w=
hich isn't included, but it just means the user has to listen to each p=
art separately, so it won't flow smoothly.</div><div><br></div><div>I c=
ompletely understand and agree with the need to keep Okrandian canon separa=
te from stuff produced by other people. When I originally started {boQwI=
9;}, it was a canon database. But the user base has other ideas. If you joi=
ned the Klingon language community early on, and you were lucky enough to b=
e able to attend the qep'a' and converse with other speakers, subsc=
ribe to HolQeD, and so on, you may not appreciate how difficult it is for a=
beginner now to pick up all of the vocabulary or develop an ear for spoken=
Klingon. There are thousands of people out there who are interested enough=
in the spoken Klingon on Discovery to the degree that they're trying t=
o convert what they hear into written Klingon so they can break down the pa=
rts and understand them, and I want to make their entry into fully learning=
Klingon as easy as possible. (I don't want to annoy beginners with not=
es about canon they won't understand, but I also don't want to anno=
y experts by mixing canon and non-canon material, so the DSC stuff will be =
marked, but not in a very obtrusive way.)</div><div><br></div><div>I think =
there's a huge opportunity for the KLI here, to produce with CBS (after=
the season, or the series, is over) a book of annotated transcripts for al=
l the Klingon language dialogue in the show, with commentary by Qov and you=
rself on word choice, grammar, etc., some comments from Marc Okrand, interv=
iews with the Klingon actors and voice coach, a glossary/dictionary in the =
back collecting the vocabulary used on the show, with lots of glossy pictur=
es of the cast and language experts. It can accompany the "making of&q=
uot; video segment for the Klingon language parts of the show. (I was going=
to suggest that this could be included in the book as a DVD, but nowadays =
I guess it should just be streamed online.) There's clearly a market fo=
r something like this.</div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">=
<div><br></div>-- <br><div class=3D"m_-1766435321704715894gmail-m_-46196258=
36520024992gmail_signature">De'vID</div>
</font></span></div></div>
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><br>
<a href=3D"http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org" rel=3D"n=
oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.<wbr>cgi/tlhinga=
n-hol-kli.org</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
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