[111225] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Marc Okrand talking about DSC (spoilerfree)
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (SuStel)
Thu Sep 28 05:00:00 2017
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To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
From: SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name>
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2017 11:10:01 -0400
In-Reply-To: <1506518703025.46394@kth.se>
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On 9/27/2017 9:25 AM, Felix Malmenbeck wrote:
>>> It's worth noting that so do «wo' DevtaHjaj ghawran» and «wo' ghawran
>>> DevtaHjaj», which are used in KGT to illustrate toast grammar.
>> As you say, these are exceptions used in toasts, so that doesn't count.
> I don't believe the first example is meant to be an exception; according to KGT:
> "If uttered as a wish, hope, or aspiration - but not as a toast - the normal word order applies: {wo' DevtaHjaj ghawran} ("May Gowron continue to lead the empire")."
>
> It might still be an error, though.
What you do is count up exceptional circumstances. If a given piece of
canon (1) is a toast, which uses special grammar, and (2) violates a
clear rule, that's two reasons to be uncertain about the correctness of
that canon. The more reasons to doubt the grammar of an utterance, the
less certain you can be of the explanation of that sentence.
But we're not talking about Okrandian canon here; we're talking about
stuff Qov wrote. Whether it's filmed or not, it has no more authority
than Worf belching out /ka'blah'blah'cha,/ until Okrand says Maltz has
an opinion on it. Naturally, Okrand would look at anything Qov wrote and
say, "Oh, sure, that's because..." and give us an explanation. But until
he does that, it's not canonical Klingon.
> Personally, I like to use phrases such as {X-ta'jaj X-taHbogh Hoch.} to wish people success. I'm fine with those being {mu'mey ru'}, though.
But if you always do that, they're not really *mu'mey ru'.* You're
taking the exceptions to the language and applying them generally, while
telling yourself that you're not really doing that.
It would be kind of like constantly telling people, /May you are happy/
or /May you are successful./ People would get you the first time they
heard it, and figured you just flubbed the sentence in the moment, but
if you kept saying that, they'd start to look at you funny. Someone
would ask, "Why do you say /are /instead of /be/?" Now, violating the
Klingon rule gives you a more versatile sentence than violating my
English examples, and that's why you'd do it, but the effect on the
listener would be similar.
--
SuStel
http://trimboli.name
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/27/2017 9:25 AM, Felix Malmenbeck
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:1506518703025.46394@kth.se">
<blockquote type="cite" style="color: #000000;">
<blockquote type="cite" style="color: #000000;">
<pre wrap="">It's worth noting that so do «wo' DevtaHjaj ghawran» and «wo' ghawran
DevtaHjaj», which are used in KGT to illustrate toast grammar.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">As you say, these are exceptions used in toasts, so that doesn't count.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">I don't believe the first example is meant to be an exception; according to KGT:
"If uttered as a wish, hope, or aspiration - but not as a toast - the normal word order applies: {wo' DevtaHjaj ghawran} ("May Gowron continue to lead the empire")."
It might still be an error, though.</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>What you do is count up exceptional circumstances. If a given
piece of canon (1) is a toast, which uses special grammar, and (2)
violates a clear rule, that's two reasons to be uncertain about
the correctness of that canon. The more reasons to doubt the
grammar of an utterance, the less certain you can be of the
explanation of that sentence.<br>
</p>
<p>But we're not talking about Okrandian canon here; we're talking
about stuff Qov wrote. Whether it's filmed or not, it has no more
authority than Worf belching out <i>ka'blah'blah'cha,</i> until
Okrand says Maltz has an opinion on it. Naturally, Okrand would
look at anything Qov wrote and say, "Oh, sure, that's because..."
and give us an explanation. But until he does that, it's not
canonical Klingon.<br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:1506518703025.46394@kth.se">
<pre wrap="">Personally, I like to use phrases such as {X-ta'jaj X-taHbogh Hoch.} to wish people success. I'm fine with those being {mu'mey ru'}, though.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<p>But if you always do that, they're not really <b>mu'mey ru'.</b>
You're taking the exceptions to the language and applying them
generally, while telling yourself that you're not really doing
that.<br>
</p>
<p>It would be kind of like constantly telling people, <i>May you
are happy</i> or <i>May you are successful.</i> People would
get you the first time they heard it, and figured you just flubbed
the sentence in the moment, but if you kept saying that, they'd
start to look at you funny. Someone would ask, "Why do you say <i>are
</i>instead of <i>be</i>?" Now, violating the Klingon rule gives
you a more versatile sentence than violating my English examples,
and that's why you'd do it, but the effect on the listener would
be similar.<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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