[111079] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Nouns in apposition
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (mayqel qunenoS)
Thu Sep 21 05:16:44 2017
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From: mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 17:28:20 +0300
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
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Thank you voragh. Are there canon examples of nouns in apposition, with
type-5 suffixes other than {-Daq} ?
qunnoq
On Sep 20, 2017 5:09 PM, "Steven Boozer" <sboozer@uchicago.edu> wrote:
> *tlhIngan juHqo'Daq tlhIng yoSDaq 'oH toQDuj chenmoHlu'meH Daq wa'DIch'e'=
*
>
> 1st Construction Site: The Kling District, Klingon Home World. (KBoP)
>
>
>
> =E2=80=9Cin the Kling District on the Klingon home world=E2=80=9D =3D one=
place (i.e. a
> single shipyard)
>
>
>
> *loghDaq lupDujHom qoDDaq bIlengtaHvIS*,* nIbuQbogh novpu' DaSuv *
>
> Battle menacing aliens in a shuttlecraft journey through space. (STX)
>
>
>
> =E2=80=9Cinside a shuttlecraft in space=E2=80=9D =3D one place (i.e. a si=
ngle ship)
>
>
>
> versus:
>
>
>
> *poSDaq nIHDaq je QamtaHvIS SuvwI'pu'*,* chaH jojDaq yItnIS lopwI'*
>
> The initiate must pass through a gauntlet of warriors. (S9)
>
> =E2=80=9Con the left (side) and on the right (side)=E2=80=9D =3D two plac=
es (i.e. two
> separate rows of warriors)
>
>
>
> --Voragh
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* SuStel
>
> On 9/20/2017 9:02 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
>
> Suppose I write the sentence:
> {Qo'noSDaq SoSlI' juHDaq qajatlh, latlh be' vImuSHa'}
> "At Qo'noS at your mother's house I told you, that I love another woman".
>
> Do you agree with the above translation, or is it, that due to the absenc=
e
> of a {je} after the {juHDaq}, the meaning becomes "at your mother's house
> which is Qo'noS I told you, that I love another woman" ?
>
> You could interpret it that way. I don't think the lack of a *je* makes
> the difference. It could also be interpreted as two separate locatives th=
at
> both apply simultaneously, one being of a different scope than another.
>
> In a cavern, in a canyon
> Excavating for a mine
> Dwelt a miner, forty-niner
> And his daughter, Clementine.
>
> In the verse, the locatives *in a cavern* and *in a canyon* are not in
> apposition to each other. The cavern is within the canyon. The subjects o=
f
> the sentence both have appositional pairs: *a miner* =3D *forty-niner* an=
d *his
> daughter* =3D *Clementine.*
>
> In your Klingon sentence, it's possible that *SoSlI' juH* is within the
> scope of *Qo'noS.*
>
> If the sentence did have a *je,* the meaning would be different:
>
>
> *Qo'noSDaq SoSlI' juHDaq je qajatlh **I speak to you on Kronos and in
> your mother's home*
>
> Here it's possible that you speak to me in both of those places, but not
> in a single utterance. One day you speak to me on Kronos; another day you
> speak to me in my mother's house.
>
> --
>
> SuStel
>
> http://trimboli.name
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
>
>
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<div dir=3D"auto">Thank you voragh. Are there canon examples of nouns in ap=
position, with type-5 suffixes other than {-Daq} ?<div dir=3D"auto"><br></d=
iv><div dir=3D"auto">qunnoq</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sep 20, 2017 5:09 PM, "Steven Boozer" &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:sboozer@uchicago.edu">sboozer@uchicago.edu</a>> wrot=
e:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_5169483772287691184WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.2in;line-height:12.0pt">
<b>tlhIngan juHqo'Daq tlhIng yoSDaq 'oH toQDuj chenmoHlu'meH Da=
q wa'DIch'e' <u></u>
<u></u></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.2in;line-height:12.0pt">
1<sup>st</sup> Construction Site: The Kling District, Klingon Home World.=
=C2=A0 (KBoP)<b><u></u><u></u></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=E2=80=9Cin the Kling District on the=
Klingon home world=E2=80=9D =3D one place (i.e. a single shipyard)<u></u><=
u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>loghDaq lupDujHom qoDDaq bIlengtaHvIS</b>,<b> nIb=
uQbogh novpu' DaSuv
</b><b><span style=3D"color:windowtext"><u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Battle menacing aliens in a shuttlecraft journey thr=
ough space.=C2=A0 (STX)<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=E2=80=9Cinside a shuttlecraft in spa=
ce=E2=80=9D =3D one place (i.e. a single ship)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">versus:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>poSDaq nIHDaq je QamtaHvIS SuvwI'pu'</b>,=
<b> chaH jojDaq yItnIS lopwI'</b>
<span style=3D"color:windowtext"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The initiate must pass through a gauntlet of warrior=
s.=C2=A0 (S9)<br>
<br>
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=E2=80=9Con the left (side) and on th=
e right (side)=E2=80=9D =3D two places (i.e. two separate rows of warriors)=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">--Voragh<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"=
;Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtex=
t"> SuStel<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 9/20/2017 9:02 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:<u></u><u=
></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p>Suppose I write the sentence:=C2=A0<span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>{Qo'noSDaq SoSlI' juHDaq qajatlh, latlh be'=
vImuSHa'}<span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><br>
</span>"At Qo'noS at your mother's house I told you, that I lo=
ve another woman".<span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
<p>Do you agree with the above translation, or is it, that due to the absen=
ce of a {je} after the {juHDaq}, the meaning becomes "at your mother&#=
39;s house which is Qo'noS I told you, that I love another woman" =
?<u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
<p>You could interpret it that way. I don't think the lack of a <b>je</=
b> makes the difference. It could also be interpreted as two separate locat=
ives that both apply simultaneously, one being of a different scope than an=
other.<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p>In a cavern, in a canyon<br>
Excavating for a mine<br>
Dwelt a miner, forty-niner<br>
And his daughter, Clementine.<u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
<p>In the verse, the locatives <i>in a cavern</i> and <i>in a canyon</i> ar=
e not in apposition to each other. The cavern is within the canyon. The sub=
jects of the sentence both have appositional pairs:
<i>a miner</i> =3D <i>forty-niner</i> and <i>his daughter</i> =3D <i>Clemen=
tine.</i><u></u><u></u></p>
<p>In your Klingon sentence, it's possible that <b>SoSlI' juH</b> i=
s within the scope of
<b>Qo'noS.</b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p>If the sentence did have a <b>je,</b> the meaning would be different:<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p><b>Qo'noSDaq SoSlI' juHDaq je qajatlh<br>
</b><i>I speak to you on Kronos and in your mother's home</i><u></u><u>=
</u></p>
</blockquote>
<p>Here it's possible that you speak to me in both of those places, but=
not in a single utterance. One day you speak to me on Kronos; another day =
you speak to me in my mother's house.<u></u><u></u></p>
<pre>-- <u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>SuStel<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"http://trimboli.name" target=3D"_blank">http://trimboli.nam=
e</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
</div>
</div>
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