[111050] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Making someone do something to someone/something
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (=?UTF-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lie_Demonchaux?)
Mon Sep 18 04:47:59 2017
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
In-Reply-To: <8b5f516d-2c73-7ba6-217a-18f30aa90054@trimboli.name>
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lie_Demonchaux?= <demonchaux.aurelie@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2017 10:47:54 +0200
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
--===============2593286236312664809==
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1141e9206fb2f9055972ccaa"
--001a1141e9206fb2f9055972ccaa
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank you both De'vID and SuStel for your replies, and apologies for taking
a while to get back to you.
So as I understand the most correct way in those cases can be summarized as
below:
< Subject 1> causes <Subject 2> to <verb> <direct object>
becomes
< Subject 2>-vaD <direct object> <verb>-moH < Subject 1>
If there is an indirect object as well as a direct object, is there already
an established way to say it?
For example:
The Captain made the prisoner give the knife to the officer
Do we just get 2 nouns with -vaD suffix ?
yaSvaD qama'vaD taj nobmoH HoD
or is it safer to work around the problem as below:
qama=E2=80=99 raDmo=E2=80=99 HoD, yaSvaD taj nob qama=E2=80=99
2017-09-15 15:26 GMT+02:00 SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name>:
> On 9/15/2017 5:18 AM, Aur=C3=A9lie Demonchaux wrote:
>
> I have been wondering about how to perfectly convey sentences where there
> seems to be 2 subjects, such as "She made you wait for us" and just came =
up
> with an idea that I wanted to discuss with you: using < ... =E2=80=99e=E2=
=80=99 qaSmoH >
>
> For instance:
> juloS =E2=80=99e=E2=80=99 qaSmoH
> > Literally: She caused it to happen that you waited for us
>
> Or, for the example from last month (they made the dog enter the cage:
> DogvaD mo=E2=80=99 lu=E2=80=99elmoH):
> mo=E2=80=99 =E2=80=99el dog =E2=80=99e=E2=80=99 luqaSmoH
>
> When you think about it, in "She made you wait for us", the subject is
> "she" but the object is not "you", it is the action/event "you wait for u=
s"
> taken as a whole, thus <... =E2=80=99e=E2=80=99 qaSmoH > seems a logical =
way to phrase it.
>
> What do you think ? Has it maybe been discussed already ?
>
> Sure, people have been using *'e' qaSmoH* forever. It was one of the
> primary ways of getting around the "ditransitive" issue before we had
> examples and confirmation. You're reconstructing it from the other
> direction.
>
> --
> SuStelhttp://trimboli.name
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
>
>
--001a1141e9206fb2f9055972ccaa
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default"><div class=3D"gmail_default">=
<font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">Thank you both De'vID and S=
uStel for your replies, and apologies for taking a while to get back to you=
.</font></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, =
sans-serif"><br></font></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><font face=3D"ari=
al, helvetica, sans-serif">So as I understand the most correct way in those=
cases can be summarized as below:</font></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"=
><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div class=3D=
"gmail_default"><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">< Subject 1&=
gt; causes <Subject 2> to <verb> <direct object></font></=
div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif=
">becomes</font></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><font face=3D"arial, hel=
vetica, sans-serif">< Subject 2>-vaD <direct object> <verb&g=
t;-moH < Subject 1></font></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><font fa=
ce=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div class=3D"gmail_de=
fault"><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">If there is an indirect =
object as well as a direct object, is there already an established way to s=
ay it?</font></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><font face=3D"arial, helvet=
ica, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><font face=
=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">For example:</font></div><div class=3D"gm=
ail_default"><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">The Captain made t=
he prisoner give the knife to the officer</font></div><div class=3D"gmail_d=
efault"><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_default"><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">Do we ju=
st get 2 nouns with -vaD suffix ?</font></div><div class=3D"gmail_default">=
<font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">yaSvaD qama'vaD taj nobmoH =
HoD</font></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><font face=3D"arial, helvetica=
, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><font face=3D"a=
rial, helvetica, sans-serif">or is it safer to work around the problem as b=
elow:</font></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><font face=3D"arial, helveti=
ca, sans-serif">qama=E2=80=99 raDmo=E2=80=99 HoD, yaSvaD taj nob qama=E2=80=
=99</font></div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote">2017-09-15 15:26 GMT+02:00 SuStel <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=
=3D"mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" target=3D"_blank">sustel@trimboli.name</a>=
></span>:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8e=
x;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
=20
=20
=20
<div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><span class=3D"">
<div class=3D"m_6252095045779801099moz-cite-prefix">On 9/15/2017 5:18 A=
M, Aur=C3=A9lie
Demonchaux wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif">I have been
wondering about how to perfectly convey sentences where there
seems to be 2 subjects, such as "She made you wait for us"=
; and
just came up with an idea that I wanted to discuss with you:
using < ... =E2=80=99e=E2=80=99 qaSmoH ></div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif">For instance:</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif">juloS =E2=80=99e=E2=80=99 qaSmoH=C2=A0</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif">> Literally:
She caused it to happen that you waited for us</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif">Or, for the
example from last month (they made the dog enter the cage:
DogvaD mo=E2=80=99 lu=E2=80=99elmoH):</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif">mo=E2=80=99 =E2=80=99el dog =E2=80=99e=E2=80=99
luqaSmoH<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif">When you think
about it, in "She made you wait for us", the subject is &=
quot;she"
but the object is not "you", it is the action/event "=
;you wait
for us" taken as a whole, thus <... =E2=80=99e=E2=80=99 qaS=
moH > seems a
logical way to phrase it.</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif">What do you think
? Has it maybe been discussed already ?</div>
</blockquote>
</span><p>Sure, people have been using <b>'e' qaSmoH</b> foreve=
r. It was
one of the primary ways of getting around the "ditransitive"=
; issue
before we had examples and confirmation. You're reconstructing it
from the other direction.<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#88888=
8"><br>
</font></span></p><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">
<pre class=3D"m_6252095045779801099moz-signature" cols=3D"72">--=20
SuStel
<a class=3D"m_6252095045779801099moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http://trim=
boli.name" target=3D"_blank">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
</font></span></div>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
tlhIngan-Hol mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org">tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org</a=
><br>
<a href=3D"http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org" rel=3D"n=
oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.<wbr>cgi/tlhinga=
n-hol-kli.org</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
--001a1141e9206fb2f9055972ccaa--
--===============2593286236312664809==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
_______________________________________________
tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
--===============2593286236312664809==--
