[110897] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] ngIq (WAS: vengDaq, vengmeyDaq je)
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (De'vID)
Wed Sep 6 14:41:16 2017
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
In-Reply-To: <CAFgJOr1Ws4CE7ppMb_wC=xm2P=q7LLsE3JStmP0aD+hvcxe8zw@mail.gmail.com>
From: "De'vID" <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2017 19:22:23 +0200
To: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
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On Sep 6, 2017 19:51, "Brent Kesler" <brent.of.all.people@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 9:45 AM, Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu> wrote:
> Some examples of {ngIq} for comparison:
>
> ngIq nuv luHoH
> they killed the warriors one by one. ('u'-OPERA)
>
> yerchajvo' Haw' qamchIynganpu' ngIq nuv luHoH
> The people of Qam-Chee, they fled their territory, and were killed one by
> one (PB)
>
> nIteb chegh molor ngIq ghoqwI'
> One by one Molor's scouts return (PB)
>
> ngIq raQvaD cha'maH vagh QaS yInob
> For each outpost pay 25 forces. (MKE)
>
> ngIq gholvaD vaghmaH QaS yInob
> Pay each player 50 forces. (MKE)
>
> ngIq gholvo' wa'maH QaS yItlhap
> Collect 10 forces from every player. (MKE)
>
> BTW notice the absence of {-taH} or {-qa'} on the verbs.
>
In these examples, "each" would make a good gloss for {ngIq}. But there are
other examples that don't fit that idea, also from paq'batlh.
I think the problem here is that you're trying to map {ngIq} into a single
English word or concept.
ngIq tonSaw' lo' 'ej tIqDu' lel
ngIq tonSaw' lo' 'ej quvqa'
ngIq tonSaw' lo' 'ej rIn may'
In one single move, he removed the hearts
In one single move, he restored his honor
In one single move, the battle was won
That makes the meaning of {ngIq} almost always ambiguous.
I disagree. It's fairly clear to me why the English translations are what
they are. There may be ambiguity in that we don't fully know how to extend
the use of {ngIq} *beyond* the examples, but I don't think the examples
taken together are ambiguous.
Why does {ngIq nuv luHoH} mean "They kill each person" instead of "They
kill a single person"?
Because {ngIq} always deals with a collection of things. If it meant "They
kill a single person", what happens to the others?
Why does {nIteb chegh molor ngIq ghoqwI'} mean "one by one Molor's scouts
return" instead of "Molor's single scout returned alone"?
Same.
Why does {ngIq tonSaw' lo'} mean "In a single move" instead of "With each
move"?
It means something like "with one move out of a collection of moves". The
surrounding context makes it clear the translation should be "in a single
move" rather than "in each move".
I don't like that ambiguity, so I avoid {ngIq}.
Based on the canon examples, if you make a single statement with {ngIq
veng}, it means "in each city (out of a collection of cities)". If you make
a series of (structurally identical) statements with {ngIq veng}, you're
explicitly listing what's done "in a single city" (going through each city
in the collection). The ambiguity is in what happens if you use it in
another way (e.g., how similar do the list of sentences have to be for the
"single one" meaning?).
--
De'vID
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<div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote">On Sep 6, 2017 19:51, "Brent Kesler" <<a href=3D"mai=
lto:brent.of.all.people@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">brent.of.all.people@gm=
ail.com</a><wbr>> wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"m_=
-3979500264844739598quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 9:45 AM, Steven Boozer <span dir=
=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:sboozer@uchicago.edu" target=3D"_blank">sboo=
zer@uchicago.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p=
adding-left:1ex">Some examples of {ngIq} for comparison:<br>
<br>
ngIq nuv luHoH<br>
they killed the warriors one by one. ('u'-OPERA)<br>
<br>
yerchajvo' Haw' qamchIynganpu' ngIq nuv luHoH<br>
The people of Qam-Chee, they fled their territory, and were killed one by o=
ne (PB)<br>
<br>
nIteb chegh molor ngIq ghoqwI'<br>
One by one Molor's scouts return (PB)<br>
<br>
ngIq raQvaD cha'maH vagh QaS yInob<br>
For each outpost pay 25 forces. (MKE)<br>
<br>
ngIq gholvaD vaghmaH QaS yInob<br>
Pay each player 50 forces. (MKE)<br>
<br>
ngIq gholvo' wa'maH QaS yItlhap<br>
Collect 10 forces from every player. (MKE)<br>
<br>
BTW notice the absence of {-taH} or {-qa'} on the verbs.<br></blockquot=
e><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>In these examples, "each" wo=
uld make a good gloss for {ngIq}. But there are other examples that don'=
;t fit that idea, also from paq'batlh.</div><div></div></div></div></di=
v></blockquote></div></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"au=
to">I think the problem here is that you're trying to map {ngIq} into a=
single English word or concept.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote=
class=3D"m_-3979500264844739598quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-le=
ft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_ex=
tra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ngIq tonSaw' l=
o' 'ej tIqDu' lel<br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ngIq tonSaw=
' lo' 'ej quvqa'</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ngIq tonSaw&=
#39; lo' 'ej rIn may'</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0In one single move, he removed the hearts</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0In one single move, he restored his honor</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
In one single move, the battle was won<br></div><div><br></div><div>That ma=
kes the meaning of {ngIq} almost always ambiguous.</div><div></div></div></=
div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div d=
ir=3D"auto">I disagree. It's fairly clear to me why the English transla=
tions are what they are. There may be ambiguity in that we don't fully =
know how to extend the use of {ngIq} *beyond* the examples, but I don't=
think the examples taken together are ambiguous.<br></div><div dir=3D"auto=
"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote"><blockquote class=3D"m_-3979500264844739598quote" style=3D"margin:=
0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>Why does {ngIq nuv=
luHoH} mean "They kill each person" instead of "They kill a=
single person"?=C2=A0<br></div><div></div></div></div></div></blockqu=
ote></div></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Because=
{ngIq} always deals with a collection of things. If it meant "They ki=
ll a single person", what happens to the others?</div><div dir=3D"auto=
"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote"><blockquote class=3D"m_-3979500264844739598quote" style=3D"margin:=
0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>Why does {nIteb ch=
egh molor ngIq ghoqwI'} mean "one by one Molor's scouts return=
" instead of "Molor's single scout returned alone"?<br><=
/div><div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Same.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></di=
v><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><=
blockquote class=3D"m_-3979500264844739598quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>Why does {ngIq tonSaw'=
lo'} mean "In a single move" instead of "With each move=
"?<br></div><div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></di=
v><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">It means something like &qu=
ot;with one move out of a collection of moves". The surrounding contex=
t makes it clear the translation should be "in a single move" rat=
her than "in each move".</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div di=
r=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquot=
e class=3D"m_-3979500264844739598quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l=
eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_e=
xtra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>I don't like that ambiguity, so I=
avoid {ngIq}.<br></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Based on the canon examples, if=
you make a single statement with {ngIq veng}, it means "in each city =
(out of a collection of cities)". If you make a series of (structurall=
y identical) statements with {ngIq veng}, you're explicitly listing wha=
t's done "in a single city" (going through each city in the c=
ollection). The ambiguity is in what happens if you use it in another way (=
e.g., how similar do the list of sentences have to be for the "single =
one" meaning?).</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">--=
=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto">De'vID</div><div dir=3D"auto"></div></div=
>
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