[110630] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Proper use of adverbial {je}
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (mayqel qunenoS)
Tue Aug 15 12:25:36 2017
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From: mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 19:25:32 +0300
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
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SuStel:
> Answer this: what is the difference between *You are beautiful > and you
are tall* and *You are beautiful and you are also tall*?
Meaning-wise, there is no difference; at least no difference that I can
think of.
However, the reason which led to this thread in the first place, wasn't
that I actually believed there was a difference to start with.
The problem is, that if you're writing a klingon passage, which will be
only 5-10 sentences, then you can certainly go ahead and repeat the same
word several times.
But when you start writing longer passages, soon you realize that even
though alternate ways of expressing the same thing - as far as their
meaning is concerned - may be identical, you still need them.
Why ?
Because you owe it to the reader, to present to him a passage, which
doesn't make him tired with the same repetitions over and over.
Who would like to read something like: {yadda yadda 'ej yadda. yadda 'ej.
yadda yadda 'ej. yadda 'ej yadda yadda. 'ej yadda}. ?
It may be grammatical, but it is ugly. And quite frankly, if I was reading
something like it, I would get the feeling that the writer is either lazy,
or incompetent.
Now, if canon doesn't give is the tools to write in a fluid, and pleasant
way for the reader, then that's another story.
But if there were ways to write more fluidly, without breaking any rules,
then why not explore the possibility ?
qunnoq
On 15 Aug 2017 6:48 pm, "mayqel qunenoS" <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
> De'vID:
> > What do you mean by "wrong"? It's grammatically correct. It
> > just doesn't mean what you want it to mean.
>
> So, the {Su'IH. 'ej Suwoch je} is grammatically correct, but the {je}
> can't be used in this way to say "you are beautiful, and you (the same
> group) are also tall", without a reference/comparison being made to another
> group, which is also tall. Right ?
>
> qunnoq
>
>
> On 15 Aug 2017 6:22 pm, "De'vID" <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 15 August 2017 at 17:10, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
> > So, all this means that the following use of {je}:
> >
> > {Su'IH. 'ej Suwoch je}
> > You are beautiful. And you are also tall.
> >
> > is wrong ?
>
> What do you mean by "wrong"? It's grammatically correct. It just
> doesn't mean what you want it to mean.
>
> Here's a context in which that sentence makes sense.
> To group A: {SumoH 'ej Suwoch} "Y'all are ugly. Y'all are tall."
> To group B: {Su'IH 'ej Suwoch je} "Y'all are beautiful. Y'all are tall
> too." That is, "Y'all (in addition to people in group A) are tall".
>
> --
> De'vID
> _______________________________________________
> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
>
>
>
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<div dir=3D"auto">SuStel:<div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-family:sans-=
serif;font-size:13.696px">> Answer this: what is the difference between=
=C2=A0</span><i style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px">You are=
beautiful > and you are tall</i><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;f=
ont-size:13.696px">=C2=A0and=C2=A0</span><i style=3D"font-family:sans-serif=
;font-size:13.696px">You are beautiful and you are also tall</i><span style=
=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px">?</span><br></div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px"><br></s=
pan></div><div dir=3D"auto">Meaning-wise, there is no difference; at least =
no difference that I can think of.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div di=
r=3D"auto">However, the reason which led to this thread in the first place,=
wasn't that I actually believed there was a difference to start with.<=
/div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">The problem is, that if =
you're writing a klingon passage, which will be only 5-10 sentences, th=
en you can certainly go ahead and repeat the same word several times.</div>=
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">But when you start writing lo=
nger passages, soon you realize that even though alternate ways of expressi=
ng the same thing - as far as their meaning is concerned - may be identical=
, you still need them.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">W=
hy ?</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Because you owe it =
to the reader, to present to him a passage, which doesn't make him tire=
d with the same repetitions over and over.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div=
><div dir=3D"auto">Who would like to read something like: {yadda yadda '=
;ej yadda. yadda 'ej. yadda yadda 'ej. yadda 'ej yadda yadda. &=
#39;ej yadda}. ?</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">It may =
be grammatical, but it is ugly. And quite frankly, if I was reading somethi=
ng like it, I would get the feeling that the writer is either lazy, or inco=
mpetent.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Now, if canon d=
oesn't give is the tools to write in a fluid, and pleasant way for the =
reader, then that's another story.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><di=
v dir=3D"auto">But if there were ways to write more fluidly, without breaki=
ng any rules, then why not explore the possibility ?</div><div dir=3D"auto"=
><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">qunnoq</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><=
br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 15 Aug 2017 6:48 pm, "mayqel qunenoS&=
quot; <<a href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mihkoun@gm=
ail.com</a>> wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x"><div dir=3D"auto">De'vID:<div dir=3D"auto">>=C2=A0<span style=3D"=
font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px">What do you mean by "wrong&=
quot;? It's grammatically correct. It</span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><sp=
an style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px">> just=C2=A0</spa=
n><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px">doesn't mea=
n what you want it to mean.</span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px"><br></span></div><div dir=3D"auto"=
><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px">So, the {Su'=
IH. 'ej Suwoch je} is grammatically correct, but the {je} can't be =
used in this way to say "you are beautiful, and you (the same group) a=
re also tall", without a reference/comparison being made to another gr=
oup, which is also tall. Right ?</span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=
=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px"><br></span></div><div dir=3D=
"auto"><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px">qunnoq</sp=
an></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra" dir=3D"auto"><br><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote">On 15 Aug 2017 6:22 pm, "De'vID" <<a href=3D"mail=
to:de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com</a>&g=
t; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"m_898413795602160299=
9quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:=
1ex"><div class=3D"m_8984137956021602999quoted-text">On 15 August 2017 at 1=
7:10, mayqel qunenoS <<a href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> So, all this means that the following use of {je}:<br>
><br>
> {Su'IH. 'ej Suwoch je}<br>
> You are beautiful. And you are also tall.<br>
><br>
> is wrong ?<br>
<br>
</div>What do you mean by "wrong"? It's grammatically correct=
. It just<br>
doesn't mean what you want it to mean.<br>
<br>
Here's a context in which that sentence makes sense.<br>
To group A: {SumoH 'ej Suwoch} "Y'all are ugly. Y'all are =
tall."<br>
To group B: {Su'IH 'ej Suwoch je} "Y'all are beautiful. Y&=
#39;all are tall<br>
too." That is, "Y'all (in addition to people in group A) are =
tall".<br>
<font color=3D"#888888"><br>
--<br>
De'vID<br>
</font><div class=3D"m_8984137956021602999elided-text">____________________=
__________<wbr>_________________<br>
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l@lists.kli.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org" rel=3D"n=
oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.<wbr>cgi/tlhinga=
n-hol-kli.org</a><br>
</div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div>
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