[110522] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Is Star Trek: Discovery a new canon category?
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (nIqolay Q)
Thu Aug 10 22:28:39 2017
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From: nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 22:28:35 -0400
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
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One of the major differences between Discovery and Klingon Hamlet is that
Discovery is going to be Actual Star Trek Canon. As far as the Star Trek
fanbase at large is concerned, Qov's sentences are going to be as canonical
as anything else on the shows and movies. If Qov writes "X is the way to
say sentence Y in Klingon" and that's what the show uses as the
translation, that's going to be treated as authoritatively as, say, the
idea that you can get a deceased loved one into Sto-Vo-Kor by dedicating a
glorious battle to them (like Worf did for Jadzia). How should we deal with
that? Are we okay ignoring things depicted as Klingon Canon on the show?
Like I said earlier, though, I'm not entirely sure it's a big deal. If
Okrand ends up approving it as "real Klingon" in some way (either as
standard "Maltz Hol" or an artifact of some dialect), like he's done with
all the other stuff presented as Klingon on the show but not written by
him, then I feel like the argument boils down to: Do we wait for him to
share his thoughts on Qov's dialogue (at the next qep'a' or whenever)
before accepting it? Or will it eventually be okay to just take a shortcut
and accept it when it airs, and only wait for his thoughts on anything
controversial?
Of course, if Okrand wants to change his precedent and not approve this
particular TV Klingon as real, {vaj may' bom pIm wIbom.} Has he said
anything about this one way or another?
On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 8:46 PM, Alan Anderson <qunchuy@alcaco.net> wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 2:17 PM, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Are people going to accept sentences from Star Trek: Discovery as
>> canonical Klingon? (For example, no objection if I use sentences from
>> the show as examples in {boQwI'}?)
>>
>
> I object. Why would you pick those sentences as examples, and not, for
> instance, sentences from Qo'noS QonoS?
>
> They're sentences created using Okrandian grammar, but they are not
> Okrandian sentences. We should not treat them as "correct by default". They
> very well could be worthy of emulation, but some of them might have
> accidental mispronunciations that didn't get caught in time, or might use
> controversial grammar, or might be intentionally aberrant for effect. I
> would enthusiastically accept any compilation of Klingon spoken on the
> show, but I would not want it to be treated with any sort of authority. We
> don't accept as canonical the invented idioms in the Klingon version of
> Hamlet, and we don't add to a dictionary the borrowed words in Much Ado
> About Nothing. Similarly, what makes it into the released episodes of
> Discovery should not change our textbooks. It's possible that a clever turn
> of phrase will turn out to catch the collective fancy of Klingon speakers,
> and thus influence how we say certain things, but I don't think that should
> be any more of an example than something from the Tao Te Ching.
>
> How would you answer if YOU were the one providing Klingon translations
> for the lines in Discovery scripts?
>
> -- ghunchu'wI'
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>One of the major differences between Discovery and Kl=
ingon Hamlet is that Discovery is going to be Actual Star Trek Canon. As fa=
r as the Star Trek fanbase at large is concerned, Qov's sentences are g=
oing to be as canonical as anything else on the shows and movies. If Qov wr=
ites "X is the way to say sentence Y in Klingon" and that's w=
hat the show uses as the translation, that's going to be treated as aut=
horitatively as, say, the idea that you can get a deceased loved one into S=
to-Vo-Kor by dedicating a glorious battle to them (like Worf did for Jadzia=
). How should we deal with that? Are we okay ignoring things depicted as Kl=
ingon Canon on the show?<br><br></div>Like I said earlier, though, I'm =
not entirely sure it's a big deal. If Okrand ends up approving it as &q=
uot;real Klingon" in some way (either as standard "Maltz Hol"=
; or an artifact of some dialect), like he's done with all the other st=
uff presented as Klingon on the show but not written by him, then I feel li=
ke the argument boils down to: Do we wait for him to share his thoughts on =
Qov's dialogue (at the next qep'a' or whenever) before acceptin=
g it? Or will it eventually be okay to just take a shortcut and accept it w=
hen it airs, and only wait for his thoughts on anything controversial? <br>=
<br>Of course, if Okrand wants to change his precedent and not approve this=
particular TV Klingon as real, {vaj may' bom pIm wIbom.} Has he said a=
nything about this one way or another?<br><div><br><div><div class=3D"gmail=
_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 8:46 PM, Alan An=
derson <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:qunchuy@alcaco.net" target=
=3D"_blank">qunchuy@alcaco.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote"><span class=3D"">On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 2:17 PM, De'vID <spa=
n dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:</span><span class=3D""><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-le=
ft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Are people going to accept sentences from Star Trek: Discovery as<br>
canonical Klingon? (For example, no objection if I use sentences from<br>
the show as examples in {boQwI'}?)<span class=3D"m_3379276720145320321g=
mail-HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br></font></span></blockquote><div><b=
r></div></span><div>I object. Why would you pick those sentences as example=
s, and not, for instance, sentences from Qo'noS QonoS?</div><div><br>Th=
ey're sentences created using Okrandian grammar, but they are not Okran=
dian sentences. We should not treat them as "correct by default".=
They very well could be worthy of emulation, but some of them might have a=
ccidental mispronunciations that didn't get caught in time, or might us=
e controversial grammar, or might be intentionally aberrant for effect. I w=
ould enthusiastically accept any compilation of Klingon spoken on the show,=
but I would not want it to be treated with any sort of authority. We don&#=
39;t accept as canonical the invented idioms in the Klingon version of Haml=
et, and we don't add to a dictionary the borrowed words in Much Ado Abo=
ut Nothing. Similarly, what makes it into the released episodes of Discover=
y should not change our textbooks. It's possible that a clever turn of =
phrase will turn out to catch the collective fancy of Klingon speakers, and=
thus influence how we say certain things, but I don't think that shoul=
d be any more of an example than something from the Tao Te Ching.<br><br></=
div><div>How would you answer if YOU were the one providing Klingon transla=
tions for the lines in Discovery scripts?<br><br>-- ghunchu'wI'<br>=
<br></div></div></div></div>
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><br>
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n-hol-kli.org</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div>
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