[110315] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Special forms of law' puS
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (nIqolay Q)
Fri Aug 4 11:24:58 2017
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In-Reply-To: <CAP7F2cJD_rH76jycb6M=pcLKyQ-O2D8hSLimEdqGMcSE9RgN0w@mail.gmail.com>
From: nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2017 11:24:54 -0400
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
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On Fri, Aug 4, 2017 at 10:56 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
> SuStel:
> > connotes negative quality
> > (connotes disparagement, seldom used)
>
> What is the difference between "connotes negative quality" and "connotes
> disparagement" ? I googled disparagement, (because I didn't know its
> meaning), and I got the synonyms of "devaluation, debasement, derogation".
>
> The way I understand the "connotes negative quality" and "connotes
> disparagement", with regards to the matter we are discussing is:
>
> If I want to say that the qagh is as dead as a stone (which is a negative
> quality) then I use {A Q *puS* B Q *puS}. *But if I want to say that the
> forehead of someone's mother is smooth as a peach, and I want the phrase to
> have the maximum insulting effect, then I will use {A Q *puS* B Q *rap}. *And
> maybe, in the qagh example, if I want to insult the chef who ccoked it, I
> will use again {A Q *puS* B Q *rap} *instead of the {A Q *puS* B Q *puS*}
> *. *Or is it that the "disparagement" concerns only the occupant of slot
> A, and not those in direct relation to him as well ?
>
I think you might be overthinking this. Looking back at the original source
for the constructions ( http://klingonska.org/canon/2004-03-holqed-13-1.txt
), it seems that the primary difference is that {A Q puS B Q puS} puts more
emphasis on the fact that Q is a bad quality to have, whereas in {A Q puS B
Q rap} it's a more general sense of negativity about the situation, rather
than anything specifically negative about Q itself. If I had to think of
some examples:
{tlhIngan yoH puS tera'ngan yoH rap} suggests that the speaker thinks it's
a bad thing that the Klingon is as brave as the Terran. Perhaps they think
Klingons should always be braver than Terrans, and think this particular
Klingon is a disappointment.
{tlhIngan yoH puS tera'ngan yoH puS} makes less sense, though, since being
brave isn't a negative quality.
To say someone's mother's forehead is as smooth as a peach, I think either
construction would work. Since smoothness is a bad thing when applied to
someone's forehead, the {puS/puS} construction makes sense. Likewise, since
deadness is a bad thing when applied to gagh, I think either the {puS/rap}
or the {puS/puS} construction would work. I don't think either one
necessarily singles out the chef, though. They both mean roughly the same
thing: "my gagh is dead as a rock, and that's bad".
> As far as the intentional ungrammaticality of the law' puS construction,
> as it is described in kgt is concerned.. Is someone allowed to make use of
> it regularly, or is it only to be used under special circumstances ?
>
It's a form of wordplay, which means it's appropriate whenever wordplay is
appropriate. You probably shouldn't do it too often, or when there's the
opportunity for confusion, or at a very formal occasion, or in a situation
where beginners are learning.
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Fri, Aug 4, 2017 at 10:56 AM, mayqel qunenoS <span dir=3D"ltr"><<=
a href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>=
></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr">SuStel:<div>>=C2=A0<span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-=
size:12.8px">connotes negative quality</span></div><div><span style=3D"colo=
r:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">>=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(=
80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">(connotes disparagement, seldom used)</span></di=
v><div><br></div><div>What is the difference between "<span style=3D"f=
ont-size:12.8px">connotes negative quality" and "</span><span sty=
le=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">connotes disparagement" ?=
=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">I googled =
disparagement, (because I didn't know its meaning), and I got the synon=
yms of "devaluation, debasement, derogation".</span></div><div><s=
pan style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><sp=
an style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">The way I understand the=
=C2=A0</span>"<span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">connotes negative quali=
ty" and "</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8p=
x">connotes disparagement", with regards to the matter we are discussi=
ng is:=C2=A0</span></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:1=
2.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12=
.8px">If I want to say that the qagh is as dead as a stone (which is a nega=
tive quality) then I use {</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-siz=
e:12.8px">A Q=C2=A0</span><b style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">=
puS</b><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">=C2=A0B Q=C2=A0<=
/span><b style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">puS}.=C2=A0</b><span=
style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">But if I want to say that th=
e forehead of someone's mother is smooth as a peach, and I want the phr=
ase to have the maximum insulting effect, then I will use {</span><span sty=
le=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">A Q=C2=A0</span><b style=3D"colo=
r:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">puS</b><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);f=
ont-size:12.8px">=C2=A0B Q=C2=A0</span><b style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-=
size:12.8px">rap}.=C2=A0</b><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.=
8px">And maybe, in the qagh example, if I want to insult the chef who ccoke=
d it, I will use again=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-s=
ize:12.8px">{</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">A Q=
=C2=A0</span><b style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">puS</b><span =
style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">=C2=A0B Q=C2=A0</span><b styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">rap}=C2=A0</b><span style=3D"colo=
r:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">instead of the=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"=
color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">{</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,=
80);font-size:12.8px">A Q=C2=A0</span><b style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-s=
ize:12.8px">puS</b><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">=C2=
=A0B Q=C2=A0</span><b style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">puS</b>=
<span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">}</span><b style=3D"col=
or:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">.=C2=A0</b><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,=
80);font-size:12.8px">Or is it that the "disparagement" concerns =
only the occupant of slot A, and not those in direct relation to him as wel=
l ?</span></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I think you might be=
overthinking this. Looking back at the original source for the constructio=
ns ( <a href=3D"http://klingonska.org/canon/2004-03-holqed-13-1.txt">http:/=
/klingonska.org/canon/2004-03-holqed-13-1.txt</a> ), it seems that the prim=
ary difference is that {A Q puS B Q puS} puts more emphasis on the fact tha=
t Q is a bad quality to have, whereas in {A Q puS B Q rap} it's a more =
general sense of negativity about the situation, rather than anything speci=
fically negative about Q itself. If I had to think of some examples:<br><br=
></div><div>{tlhIngan yoH puS tera'ngan yoH rap} suggests that the spea=
ker thinks it's a bad thing that the Klingon is as brave as the Terran.=
Perhaps they think Klingons should always be braver than Terrans, and thin=
k this particular Klingon is a disappointment. <br><br></div><div>{tlhIngan=
yoH puS tera'ngan yoH puS} makes less sense, though, since being brave=
isn't a negative quality.<br></div><div><br></div><div>To say someone&=
#39;s mother's forehead is as smooth as a peach, I think either constru=
ction would work. Since smoothness is a bad thing when applied to someone&#=
39;s forehead, the {puS/puS} construction makes sense. Likewise, since dead=
ness is a bad thing when applied to gagh, I think either the {puS/rap} or t=
he {puS/puS} construction would work. I don't think either one necessar=
ily singles out the chef, though. They both mean roughly the same thing: &q=
uot;my gagh is dead as a rock, and that's bad".<br></div><div>=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px"></span></div><div><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:12.8px">As far as the intentional ungrammaticality of the law' p=
uS construction, as it is described in kgt is concerned.. Is someone allowe=
d to make use of it regularly, or is it only to be used under special circu=
mstances ?</span></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>It's a fo=
rm of wordplay, which means it's appropriate whenever wordplay is appro=
priate. You probably shouldn't do it too often, or when there's the=
opportunity for confusion, or at a very formal occasion, or in a situation=
where beginners are learning.<br></div></div></div></div>
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