[110308] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Special forms of law' puS
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (mayqel qunenoS)
Fri Aug 4 11:04:14 2017
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From: mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2017 17:56:50 +0300
To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
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SuStel:
> connotes negative quality
> (connotes disparagement, seldom used)
What is the difference between "connotes negative quality" and "connotes
disparagement" ? I googled disparagement, (because I didn't know its
meaning), and I got the synonyms of "devaluation, debasement, derogation".
The way I understand the "connotes negative quality" and "connotes
disparagement", with regards to the matter we are discussing is:
If I want to say that the qagh is as dead as a stone (which is a negative
quality) then I use {A Q *puS* B Q *puS}. *But if I want to say that the
forehead of someone's mother is smooth as a peach, and I want the phrase to
have the maximum insulting effect, then I will use {A Q *puS* B Q *rap}. *A=
nd
maybe, in the qagh example, if I want to insult the chef who ccoked it, I
will use again {A Q *puS* B Q *rap} *instead of the {A Q *puS* B Q *puS*}
*. *Or is it that the "disparagement" concerns only the occupant of slot A,
and not those in direct relation to him as well ?
Am I right ?
SuStel:
> If the positive antonym is used in place of *law'* and the negative in
place of *puS,* you get the same
> meaning as the standard *law'/puS.* If the order is reversed, you get *A
is less Q than B.* The reversed
> version is seldom used. Okrand does not give any examples of doing this
with *Hoch* in the B slot, but
> he says it can be done.
You mean that what 'oqranD says that can be done, is in an antonym
construction placing the {Hoch} in the A slot, thus having that "all are
less than.." ?
..and finally
As far as the intentional ungrammaticality of the law' puS construction, as
it is described in kgt is concerned.. Is someone allowed to make use of it
regularly, or is it only to be used under special circumstances ?
qunnoq
On Fri, Aug 4, 2017 at 5:18 PM, Lawrence M. Schoen <klingonguy@gmail.com>
wrote:
> This is a great summary. It belongs on one of the new (and forthcoming)
> KLI Trading Cards.
>
> On Fri, Aug 4, 2017 at 9:54 AM SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
>
>> Here are the variants of *law'/puS* and other comparatives we've gotten
>> over the years.
>>
>> A Q *law'* B Q
>> *puS **A is more Q than B*
>>
>> A Q *law' Hoch* Q
>> *puS **A is the most Q of all*
>>
>> Q A;* rap* B
>> *B is as Q as A*
>>
>> Q A; *nIb* B
>> *B is as Q as A* (connotes precision)
>>
>> A Q *law'* B Q
>> *rap **A is as Q as B*
>>
>> A Q *puS* B Q
>> *rap **A is as Q as B *(connotes disparagement, seldom used)
>>
>> A Q *law'* B Q
>> *nIb **A is as Q as B* (connotes precision)
>>
>> A Q *law'* B Q
>> *law' **A is as Q as B *(connotes positive quality)
>>
>> A Q *puS* B Q
>> *puS **A is as Q as B* (connotes negative quality)
>>
>> A Q *law'* B Q
>> *pIm **A's Q is different than B's Q *(does not imply that one is more Q
>> than the other, only that their Qs are different)
>>
>> A Q *law'be'* B Q *puSbe'*
>> *A is not more Q than B*
>>
> --
> Dr. Lawrence M. Schoen :: author :: publisher :: psychologist ::
> hypnotist :: klingonist
> :::: Campbell, Hugo, Nebula, & WSFS Award nominee ::::: C=C3=B3yotl Awar=
d
> winner ::::
> www.lawrencemschoen.com ::: www.papergolem.com ::: www.
> hypnosis4writers.com
>
>
>
>
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>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">SuStel:<div>>=C2=A0<span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);fo=
nt-size:12.8px">connotes negative quality</span></div><div><span style=3D"c=
olor:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">>=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"color:r=
gb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">(connotes disparagement, seldom used)</span><=
/div><div><br></div><div>What is the difference between "<span style=
=3D"font-size:12.8px">connotes negative quality" and "</span><spa=
n style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">connotes disparagement"=
; ?=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">I googl=
ed disparagement, (because I didn't know its meaning), and I got the sy=
nonyms of "devaluation, debasement, derogation".</span></div><div=
><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div>=
<span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">The way I understand th=
e=C2=A0</span>"<span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">connotes negative qual=
ity" and "</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8=
px">connotes disparagement", with regards to the matter we are discuss=
ing is:=C2=A0</span></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:=
12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:1=
2.8px">If I want to say that the qagh is as dead as a stone (which is a neg=
ative quality) then I use {</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-si=
ze:12.8px">A Q=C2=A0</span><b style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px"=
>puS</b><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">=C2=A0B Q=C2=A0=
</span><b style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">puS}.=C2=A0</b><spa=
n style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">But if I want to say that t=
he forehead of someone's mother is smooth as a peach, and I want the ph=
rase to have the maximum insulting effect, then I will use {</span><span st=
yle=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">A Q=C2=A0</span><b style=3D"col=
or:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">puS</b><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);=
font-size:12.8px">=C2=A0B Q=C2=A0</span><b style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font=
-size:12.8px">rap}.=C2=A0</b><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12=
.8px">And maybe, in the qagh example, if I want to insult the chef who ccok=
ed it, I will use again=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-=
size:12.8px">{</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">A =
Q=C2=A0</span><b style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">puS</b><span=
style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">=C2=A0B Q=C2=A0</span><b sty=
le=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">rap}=C2=A0</b><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">instead of the=C2=A0</span><span style=3D=
"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">{</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0=
,80);font-size:12.8px">A Q=C2=A0</span><b style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-=
size:12.8px">puS</b><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">=C2=
=A0B Q=C2=A0</span><b style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">puS</b>=
<span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">}</span><b style=3D"col=
or:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">.=C2=A0</b><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,=
80);font-size:12.8px">Or is it that the "disparagement" concerns =
only the occupant of slot A, and not those in direct relation to him as wel=
l ?</span></div><div><b style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px"><br><=
/b></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">Am I righ=
t ?</span><br></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px=
"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px"=
>SuStel:</span></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8p=
x">>=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">If the positive antony=
m is used in place of=C2=A0</span><b style=3D"font-size:12.8px">law'</b=
><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">=C2=A0and the negative in place of=C2=A0<=
/span><b style=3D"font-size:12.8px">puS,</b><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px=
">=C2=A0you get the same=C2=A0</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12=
.8px">> meaning as the standard=C2=A0</span><b style=3D"font-size:12.8px=
">law'/puS.</b><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">=C2=A0If the order is r=
eversed, you get=C2=A0</span><i style=3D"font-size:12.8px">A is less Q than=
B.</i><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">=C2=A0The reversed=C2=A0</span></di=
v><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">> version is seldom used. Okrand=
does not give any examples of doing this with=C2=A0</span><b style=3D"font=
-size:12.8px">Hoch</b><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">=C2=A0in the B slot,=
but=C2=A0</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">> he says i=
t can be done.</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></span=
></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">You mean that what 'oqranD=
says that can be done, is in an antonym construction placing the {Hoch} in=
the A slot, thus having that "all are less than.." ?</span></div=
><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D=
"font-size:12.8px">..and finally</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">As far as th=
e intentional ungrammaticality of the law' puS construction, as it is d=
escribed in kgt is concerned.. Is someone allowed to make use of it regular=
ly, or is it only to be used under special circumstances ?</span></div><div=
><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"font=
-size:12.8px">qunnoq</span></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Aug 4, 2017 at 5:18 PM, Lawrence M. Schoen <s=
pan dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:klingonguy@gmail.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">klingonguy@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:=
1ex"><div><div dir=3D"auto">This is a great summary. It belongs on one of t=
he new (and forthcoming) KLI Trading Cards.</div><span class=3D""><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>On Fri, Aug 4, 2017 at 9:54 AM SuStel <<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" target=3D"_blank">sustel@trimboli.name</a=
>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0=
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
=20
=20
=20
<div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
<p>Here are the variants of <b>law'/puS</b> and other comparatives
we've gotten over the years.<br>
</p>
<p>A Q <b>law'</b> B Q <b>puS<br>
</b><i>A is more Q than B</i></p>
<p>A Q <b>law' Hoch</b> Q <b>puS<br>
</b><i>A is the most Q of all</i></p>
<p>Q A;<b> rap</b> B<br>
<i>B is as Q as A</i></p>
<p>Q A; <b>nIb</b> B<br>
<i>B is as Q as A</i> (connotes precision)</p>
<p>A Q <b>law'</b> B Q <b>rap<br>
</b><i>A is as Q as B</i></p>
<p>A Q <b>puS</b> B Q <b>rap<br>
</b><i>A is as Q as B </i>(connotes disparagement, seldom used)</p>
<p>A Q <b>law'</b> B Q <b>nIb<br>
</b><i>A is as Q as B</i> (connotes precision)</p>
<p>A Q <b>law'</b> B Q <b>law'<br>
</b><i>A is as Q as B </i>(connotes positive quality)</p>
<p>A Q <b>puS</b> B Q <b>puS<br>
</b><i>A is as Q as B</i> (connotes negative quality)</p>
<p>A Q <b>law'</b> B Q <b>pIm<br>
</b><i>A's Q is different than B's Q<b> </b></i>(does not imp=
ly
that one is more Q than the other, only that their Qs are
different)<br>
</p>
<p>A Q <b>law'be'</b> B Q <b>puSbe'</b><br>
<i>A is not more Q than B</i></p></div>
</blockquote></div></span></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#8888=
88"><div dir=3D"ltr">-- <br></div><div class=3D"m_7974243628971847810gmail_=
signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-size:small"><font face=3D"times new roman, seri=
f" style=3D"font-size:13px">Dr. Lawrence M. Schoen ::=C2=A0</font><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:13px;font-family:'times new roman',serif">author ::=
publisher ::</span><span style=3D"font-size:13px;font-family:'times ne=
w roman',serif">=C2=A0psychologist=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size=
:13px;font-family:'times new roman',serif">:: hypnotist ::</span><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:13px;font-family:'times new roman',serif">=
=C2=A0klingonist</span><br></div><span style=3D"font-size:13px;font-family:=
'times new roman',serif">:::: Campbell, =C2=A0Hugo, Nebula, & W=
SFS Award nominee=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:13px;font-family:=
9;times new roman',serif">::::: C=C3=B3yotl Award winner ::::</span><di=
v style=3D"font-size:small"><div><span style=3D"font-size:13px;font-family:=
'times new roman',serif">=C2=A0</span><font face=3D"times new roman=
, serif"><a href=3D"http://www.lawrencemschoen.com/" style=3D"color:rgb(17,=
85,204)" target=3D"_blank">www.lawrencemschoen.com</a>=C2=A0:::=C2=A0<a hre=
f=3D"http://www.papergolem.com/" style=3D"color:rgb(17,85,204)" target=3D"_=
blank">w<wbr>ww.papergolem.com</a>=C2=A0:::=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://www.hypn=
osis4writers.com/" style=3D"color:rgb(17,85,204)" target=3D"_blank">www.<wb=
r>hypnosis4writers.com</a></font></div><div><br></div><div><img src=3D"http=
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oad"><br></div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div>
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