[110235] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] The use of 'aqroS
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (SuStel)
Wed Aug 2 13:30:15 2017
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From: SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name>
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2017 13:29:43 -0400
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On 8/2/2017 1:01 PM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
> We have the canon phrase {'aqroS qughDo} for "maximum cruising speed".
> (canon because it is from the bird of prey poster).
>
> The way I analyze this phrase, it is "cruising speed of maximum".
There are two ways to interpret the noun-noun construction, genitive or
possessive. Possessive is a subset of genitive.
You already understand possessive: it means the first noun owns, or
holds, or is otherwise associated with the second noun. *HoD quS*
/captain's chair; chair of the captain; chair owned by, held by, or
otherwise associated with the captain./
Genitive means the first noun modifies the meaning of the second noun,
typically by narrowing the possible types of noun you're talking about.
*baS 'In* /metal drum:/ you're not saying metal owns, holds, or is
associated with the drum; you're narrowing down what kind of drum you
mean by saying it's the metal kind.
Possessive is a subset of genitive because a possessive noun also
narrows the possible meanings of the second noun. Of all possible
chairs, the one you're referring to is the one owned, held, or
associated with the captain.
*'aqroS qughDo* /maximum cruising speed /is an example of a genitive
construction that is not a possessive construction. The cruising speed
doesn't own, hold, or find itself associated with the concept of
maximum. Instead, you're specifying what kind of cruising speed you're
talking about by narrowing it down to maximum cruising speed.
English sentences do not make this distinction clear, and Klingon almost
doesn't distinguish at all between them. I can think of one instance
where it does: when using pronouns with "relative area" nouns, you don't
use the possessive suffixes; you use pronouns in a noun-noun
construction: *jIH Dung* /area above me /instead of *DungwIj; maH 'em*
/area in front of us /instead of *'emmaj.* Otherwise, it's unclear
whether, for instance, *tlhIngan Hol* means /language associated with
Klingons/ or /language specified by its Klingonness./ Or if you don't
know the context, one might have a bunch of chairs lined up, and you're
asked which one is the chair some hypothetical captain might use. There
the phrase *HoD quS* wouldn't be possessive, because you're not talking
about a captain owning or holding or being associated with the chair;
you're talking about narrowing down the type of chair.
> Would it be acceptable if we wrote {qughDo 'aqroS} for "the maximum of
> cruising speed" ? Would it mean the same ?
*'aqroS qughDo* talks about a cruising speed: maximum cruising speed,
instead of half cruising speed or minimum cruising speed. *qughDo
'aqroS* talks about a maximum: cruising speed maximum, instead of
emergency speed maximum or thruster speed maximum.
--
SuStel
http://trimboli.name
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/2/2017 1:01 PM, mayqel qunenoS
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAP7F2cK2pkeC-izHgDtW7H7y2ebatwOid=jcrg_vAJoWhK=k1Q@mail.gmail.com">We
have the canon phrase {'aqroS qughDo} for "maximum cruising
speed". (canon because it is from the bird of prey poster).
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">The way I analyze this phrase, it is "cruising
speed of maximum".</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>There are two ways to interpret the noun-noun construction,
genitive or possessive. Possessive is a subset of genitive.</p>
<p>You already understand possessive: it means the first noun owns,
or holds, or is otherwise associated with the second noun. <b>HoD
quS</b> <i>captain's chair; chair of the captain; chair owned
by, held by, or otherwise associated with the captain.</i><br>
</p>
<p>Genitive means the first noun modifies the meaning of the second
noun, typically by narrowing the possible types of noun you're
talking about. <b>baS 'In</b> <i>metal drum:</i> you're not
saying metal owns, holds, or is associated with the drum; you're
narrowing down what kind of drum you mean by saying it's the metal
kind.</p>
<p>Possessive is a subset of genitive because a possessive noun also
narrows the possible meanings of the second noun. Of all possible
chairs, the one you're referring to is the one owned, held, or
associated with the captain.</p>
<p><b>'aqroS qughDo</b> <i>maximum cruising speed </i>is an
example of a genitive construction that is not a possessive
construction. The cruising speed doesn't own, hold, or find itself
associated with the concept of maximum. Instead, you're specifying
what kind of cruising speed you're talking about by narrowing it
down to maximum cruising speed.</p>
<p>English sentences do not make this distinction clear, and Klingon
almost doesn't distinguish at all between them. I can think of one
instance where it does: when using pronouns with "relative area"
nouns, you don't use the possessive suffixes; you use pronouns in
a noun-noun construction: <b>jIH Dung</b> <i>area above me </i>instead
of <b>DungwIj; maH 'em</b> <i>area in front of us </i>instead
of <b>'emmaj.</b> Otherwise, it's unclear whether, for instance,
<b>tlhIngan Hol</b> means <i>language associated with Klingons</i>
or <i>language specified by its Klingonness.</i> Or if you don't
know the context, one might have a bunch of chairs lined up, and
you're asked which one is the chair some hypothetical captain
might use. There the phrase <b>HoD quS</b> wouldn't be
possessive, because you're not talking about a captain owning or
holding or being associated with the chair; you're talking about
narrowing down the type of chair.<br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAP7F2cK2pkeC-izHgDtW7H7y2ebatwOid=jcrg_vAJoWhK=k1Q@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="auto">Would it be acceptable if we wrote {qughDo 'aqroS}
for "the maximum of cruising speed" ? Would it mean the same ?</div>
</blockquote>
<p><b>'aqroS qughDo</b> talks about a cruising speed: maximum
cruising speed, instead of half cruising speed or minimum cruising
speed. <b>qughDo 'aqroS</b> talks about a maximum: cruising speed
maximum, instead of emergency speed maximum or thruster speed
maximum.<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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