[110199] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Experience and usage of jeS
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (SuStel)
Tue Aug 1 09:29:48 2017
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From: SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name>
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2017 09:29:14 -0400
In-Reply-To: <CAMBCAn8cesfZsaGykVJtJOAyZpDU8KaQff1Kk-cU3RDX9-=j0w@mail.gmail.com>
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On 8/1/2017 8:01 AM, Lawrence M. Schoen wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 7:49 AM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name
> <mailto:sustel@trimboli.name>> wrote:
>
> Idioms often don't translate between languages, and since Klingon
> is unrelated to any Earth language there's no chance that idioms
> in one are also idioms in the other (unless there's borrowing).
>
> I understand your intention here but I think you're overstating the
> case. In part, because such an occurrence would be the very definition
> of "chance" but also because idioms emerge out of behavior and
> observation and Terrans and Klingons engage in quite a few parallel
> behaviors. Consider for a moment the many idioms we have for vomiting.
> This behavior is common ground and I would not be surprised to find a
> Klingon variant of "he tossed his cookies" that would be readily
> understandable as figurative language, without need to appeal to
> "borrowing."
Oh sure, Klingon will sometimes have idioms for things that English has
idioms for. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Klingon had an idiom
equivalent to English /he tossed his cookies,/ but I would be VERY
surprised if that idiom were *chabDaj woD.*
Let me amend my statement to say that idioms often don't translate
LITERALLY between languages. You can translate an idiom by selecting an
equivalent idiom in the target language, but not by translating the
source idiom word for word.
But if you don't have an equivalent idiom in the target language, then
you have to find the literal meaning of the idiom and translate that.
--
SuStel
http://trimboli.name
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/1/2017 8:01 AM, Lawrence M. Schoen
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAMBCAn8cesfZsaGykVJtJOAyZpDU8KaQff1Kk-cU3RDX9-=j0w@mail.gmail.com">On
Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 7:49 AM, SuStel <span dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">sustel@trimboli.name</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<p>Idioms often don't translate between languages, and since
Klingon is unrelated to any Earth language there's no chance
that idioms in one are also idioms in the other (unless
there's borrowing). </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>I understand your intention here but I think you're
overstating the case. In part, because such an occurrence would
be the very definition of "chance" but also because idioms
emerge out of behavior and observation and Terrans and Klingons
engage in quite a few parallel behaviors. Consider for a moment
the many idioms we have for vomiting. This behavior is common
ground and I would not be surprised to find a Klingon variant of
"he tossed his cookies" that would be readily understandable as
figurative language, without need to appeal to "borrowing."</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Oh sure, Klingon will sometimes have idioms for things that
English has idioms for. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Klingon
had an idiom equivalent to English <i>he tossed his cookies,</i>
but I would be VERY surprised if that idiom were <b>chabDaj woD.</b></p>
<p>Let me amend my statement to say that idioms often don't
translate LITERALLY between languages. You can translate an idiom
by selecting an equivalent idiom in the target language, but not
by translating the source idiom word for word.</p>
<p>But if you don't have an equivalent idiom in the target language,
then you have to find the literal meaning of the idiom and
translate that.<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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