[110023] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] With regards to invectives
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (mayqel qunenoS)
Wed Jul 19 12:49:04 2017
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From: mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2017 19:49:00 +0300
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
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voragh:
> qunnoq, are there any in the Iliad or
> Odyssey, or have these texts been
> expurgated over the centuries?
ghelwI'vam vIjanglaH net jalchugh, vaj jIQuch. Do'Ha', wejmaH ben, DuSaQDaq
lutmeyvam vIHaD vaj DaH vIqawlaHbe'..
I wish I could answer this but I can't. It was thirty years ago when I
studied these poems at school, so now I can't remember.
qunnoq
On 19 Jul 2017 7:17 pm, "Steven Boozer" <sboozer@uchicago.edu> wrote:
AFAIK the only example of an expletive used =E2=80=9Cwithin the sentence=E2=
=80=9D =E2=80=93 rather
than an introductory exclamation or the like =E2=80=93 was from Okrand=E2=
=80=99s notes for
ST5 in a line that didn=E2=80=99t make it into the movie:
* ghuy'* *po'qu' *
Damn he's good (i.e. Kirk; ST5 notes)
and the English could easily be re-punctuated =E2=80=9CDamn! He=E2=80=99s g=
ood.=E2=80=9D
Oddly, I couldn=E2=80=99t find any examples of invective used in the paq=E2=
=80=99batlh.
Perhaps they=E2=80=99re considered inappropriate in religious/classical lit=
erature
- even for Klingons! (qunnoq, are there any in the Iliad or Odyssey, or
have these texts been expurgated over the centuries?) The common epithet
{petaQ}, and even {petaQ=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99}, does appear a few times howev=
er.
In =E2=80=9CThe Klingon Hamlet=E2=80=9D I know of these non-Okrandian examp=
les:
* va*,* Do'Ha'** yorIq *
* Alas*,* poor Yorick*! (TKH)
* baQa', Qovpatlh, toy'wI"a' qal je jIH*
O, what a rogue and peasant slave am I! (TKH)
And finally in the TNG episode "The Mind's Eye" when Picard failed to
convince Governor Vagh that the Federation wasn't supplying weapons to
Kriosian rebels, Vagh shouted: "You speak the lies of a **tah-keck****!"
Picard calmly leaned forward and replied, "**Qu'vatlh guy'cha b'aka*!*"
Vagh complimented him: "You swear well, Picard. You must have Klingon blood
in your veins." (Spellings from the closed captions).
Obviously the writers just strung some words together, but Vagh accepted
it.
--Voragh
*From:* mayqel qunenoS
So we have the {jay'}, which always comes at the end of the sentence,
transforming the entire sentence into an invective.
But how are the other invectives i.e. {va} {Hu'tegh} {ghay'cha'} {baQa'},
used ?
Are they placed at the end of the sentence ? Somewhere else within the
sentence, or are they placed between sentences ?
qunnoq
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<div dir=3D"auto"><div>voragh:<div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-family:=
courier;font-size:13.696px">> qunnoq, are there any in the Iliad or=C2=
=A0</span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-family:courier;font-s=
ize:13.696px">> Odyssey, or have these texts been=C2=A0</span></div><div=
dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-family:courier;font-size:13.696px">> e=
xpurgated over the centuries?</span><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=
=3D"font-family:sans-serif"><br></span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=
=3D"font-family:sans-serif"><br></span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><font face=
=3D"sans-serif">ghelwI'vam vIjanglaH net jalchugh, vaj jIQuch. Do'H=
a', wejmaH ben, DuSaQDaq lutmeyvam vIHaD vaj DaH vIqawlaHbe'..</fon=
t></div><div dir=3D"auto"><font face=3D"sans-serif"><br></font></div><div d=
ir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif">I wish I could answer th=
is but I can't. It was thirty years ago when I studied these poems at s=
chool, so now I can't remember.</span><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span=
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif"><br></span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif">qunnoq</span></div><div class=3D"gmail_ext=
ra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 19 Jul 2017 7:17 pm, "Steven Boo=
zer" <<a href=3D"mailto:sboozer@uchicago.edu">sboozer@uchicago.edu<=
/a>> wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"quote" style=3D=
"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"m_-2394957645715374874WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">AFAIK the only e=
xample of an expletive used =E2=80=9Cwithin the sentence=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93=
rather than an introductory exclamation or the like =E2=80=93 was from Okr=
and=E2=80=99s notes for ST5 in a line that didn=E2=80=99t make it into the =
movie:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier"><u></u>=C2=A0<u>=
</u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>=C2=A0 ghuy'</b> <b>po'qu' <u></u><u>=
</u></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0Damn he's good (i.e. Kirk; ST5 notes=
)<br>
<br>
<span style=3D"font-family:Courier"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">and the English =
could easily be re-punctuated =E2=80=9CDamn! He=E2=80=99s good.=E2=80=9D<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier"><u></u>=C2=A0<u>=
</u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">Oddly, I couldn=
=E2=80=99t find any examples of invective used in the paq=E2=80=99batlh.=C2=
=A0 Perhaps they=E2=80=99re considered inappropriate in religious/classical=
literature - even for Klingons!=C2=A0 (qunnoq, are there any in the Iliad
or Odyssey, or have these texts been expurgated over the centuries?)=C2=A0=
The common epithet {petaQ}, and even {petaQ=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99}, does appe=
ar a few times however.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial",sans-serif;color:#44546a"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">In =E2=80=9CThe =
Klingon Hamlet=E2=80=9D I know of these non-Okrandian examples:<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial",sans-serif;color:#44546a"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">=C2=A0 va<=
/span></i></b><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">,<b><i> Do'Ha'</i=
></b><i>
<b>yorIq <u></u><u></u></b></i></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><i><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0A=
las</span></i><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">,<i> poor Yorick</i>! (TK=
H)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier"><u></u>=C2=A0<u>=
</u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i>=C2=A0 baQa', Qovpatlh, toy'wI"a&=
#39; qal je jIH</i></b> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0O, what a rogue and peasant slave am I! =
(TKH)<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">And finally in t=
he TNG episode "The Mind's Eye" when Picard failed to convinc=
e Governor<i>
</i>Vagh that the Federation wasn't supplying weapons to Kriosian rebel=
s, Vagh shouted: "You speak the lies of a *<b><i>tah-keck</i></b><i>*<=
/i>!"=C2=A0 Picard calmly leaned forward and replied, "*<i>Qu'=
;vatlh guy'cha b'aka</i>!*"=C2=A0 Vagh complimented him: "=
;You swear
well, Picard. You must have Klingon blood in your veins." =C2=A0(Spel=
lings from the closed captions).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier"><u></u>=C2=A0<u>=
</u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">Obviously the wr=
iters just strung some words together, but Vagh accepted it.=C2=A0
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier"><u></u>=C2=A0<u>=
</u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial",sans-serif;color:#44546a"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial",sans-serif;color:#44546a">--Voragh<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial",sans-serif;color:#44546a"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial",sans-serif;color:#44546a"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"=
;Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> mayqel qunenoS<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div><div class=3D"elided-text">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So we have the {jay'}, which always comes at the=
end of the sentence, transforming the entire sentence into an invective.<u=
></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">But how are the other invectives i.e. {va} {Hu't=
egh} {ghay'cha'} {baQa'}, used ?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Are they placed at the end of the sentence ? Somewhe=
re else within the sentence, or are they placed between sentences ?<u></u><=
u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">qunnoq<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div></div>
</div>
</div>
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<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>
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