[109811] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Imperatives and {-be'}
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (mayqel qunenoS)
Thu Jul 6 15:05:25 2017
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From: mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2017 22:05:19 +0300
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
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So the {HIleghmoHQo'} is correct for "don't make me see" ?
On 6 Jul 2017 10:02 pm, "mayqel qunenoS" <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
> lieven:
> > Anyway, to avoid this, use -Ha' instead. It can be use in imperatives.
>
> You mean something like {HIvoqHa'Qo'} for "don't mistrust me" ?
>
> qunnoq
>
> On 6 Jul 2017 9:54 pm, "Lieven" <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
>
>> On 7/6/2017 11:14 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
>>
>>> "Even though tkd says that {-be'} cannot be used with imperatives, it
>>>> seems that this means only that it cannot be used to form negative
>>>> imperatives. For example, a sentence such as {HIleghbe'moH} seems to be
>>>> possible"
>>>>
>>>> I can't understand this. Isn't the {HIleghbe'moH} a negative imperative
>>>> ? Doesn't it mean "make me not see !" ?
>>>>
>>>
>> Am 06.07.2017 um 17:28 schrieb SuStel:
>>
>>> boQwI' is wrong.
>>>
>>
>> Don't be so strict; just because boQwI' mentions something we have no rue
>> for, it does not mean that it's wrong. As you said, there is no example for
>> or against this, so you cannot be sure at all.
>>
>> I don't know how the creator came to that conclusion. It would be
>>> convenient if we could, but TKD prohibits it and I don't think we've ever
>>> seen a counterexample.
>>>
>>
>> TKD does not explicitely prohibit THIS example, it prohibits using -be'
>> in the puporse of a negative imperative. Opposed to other suffixes, -be' is
>> a Rover and changes its meaning depending on where it stands.
>>
>> (besides, always keep in mind that TKD was never intented to be 100%
>> complete, so thhe author may just have skipped this specific situation.)
>>
>> What we can be sure of is that {HIleghmoHbe'} is forbidden, because the
>> -be' negates the command {HIleghmoH}, so we need -Qo' here.
>>
>> If I'd stick to the rules, I should just replace the be' with the -Qo'
>> and get {HIleghQo'moH}... but wait: "Unlike {-be',} the position of {-Qo'}
>> does not change" (TKD) so it comes to the end: {HIleghmoHQo'} - but that is
>> something else, right?
>>
>> Just like the note in boQwI', I am also convinced that the following
>> phrases should be grammatical:
>>
>> {HIleghmoH} "make me see"
>> {HIleghbe'moH} "make me not see"
>> It's different from "Don't make me see", which is different in English as
>> well.
>> {HIleghbe'moHQo'} "Don't make me not see"
>>
>> Anyway, to avoid this, use -Ha' instead. It can be use in imperatives.
>>
>> --
>> Lieven L. Litaer
>> aka Quvar valer 'utlh
>> Grammarian of the KLI
>> http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher
>> http://www.klingonwiki.net
>> _______________________________________________
>> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
>> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
>> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
>>
>
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<div dir=3D"auto">So the {HIleghmoHQo'} is correct for "don't =
make me see" ?</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">On 6 Jul 2017 10:02 pm, "mayqel qunenoS" <<a href=3D"m=
ailto:mihkoun@gmail.com">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br type=3D"attrib=
ution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-=
left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">lieven:<div dir=3D"=
auto">>=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px">A=
nyway, to avoid this, use -Ha' instead. It can be use in imperatives.</=
span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-siz=
e:13.696px"><br></span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-family:s=
ans-serif">You mean something like {HIvoqHa'Qo'} for "don'=
t mistrust me" ?</span><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size=
:13.696px"><br></span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-family:sa=
ns-serif"><br></span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-family:san=
s-serif">qunnoq</span></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">On 6 Jul 2017 9:54 pm, "Lieven" <<a href=3D"m=
ailto:levinius@gmx.de" target=3D"_blank">levinius@gmx.de</a>> wrote:<br =
type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 =
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On 7/6/2017 11:14 AM, m=
ayqel qunenoS wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
"Even though tkd says that {-be'} cannot be used with imperatives,=
it seems that this means only that it cannot be used to form negative impe=
ratives. For example, a sentence such as {HIleghbe'moH} seems to be pos=
sible"<br>
<br>
I can't understand this. Isn't the {HIleghbe'moH} a negative im=
perative ? Doesn't it mean "make me not see !" ?<br>
</blockquote></blockquote>
<br>
Am 06.07.2017 um 17:28 schrieb SuStel:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
boQwI' is wrong.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Don't be so strict; just because boQwI' mentions something we have =
no rue for, it does not mean that it's wrong. As you said, there is no =
example for or against this, so you cannot be sure at all.<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
I don't know how the creator came to that conclusion. It would be conve=
nient if we could, but TKD prohibits it and I don't think we've eve=
r seen a counterexample.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
TKD does not explicitely prohibit THIS example, it prohibits using -be'=
in the puporse of a negative imperative. Opposed to other suffixes, -be=
9; is a Rover and changes its meaning depending on where it stands.<br>
<br>
(besides, always keep in mind that TKD was never intented to be 100% comple=
te, so thhe author may just have skipped this specific situation.)<br>
<br>
What we can be sure of is that {HIleghmoHbe'} is forbidden, because the=
-be' negates the command {HIleghmoH}, so we need -Qo' here.<br>
<br>
If I'd stick to the rules, I should just replace the be' with the -=
Qo' and get {HIleghQo'moH}... but wait: "Unlike {-be',} th=
e position of {-Qo'} does not change" (TKD) so it comes to the end=
: {HIleghmoHQo'} - but that is something else, right?<br>
<br>
Just like the note in boQwI', I am also convinced that the following ph=
rases should be grammatical:<br>
<br>
{HIleghmoH} "make me see"<br>
{HIleghbe'moH} "make me not see"<br>
It's different from "Don't make me see", which is differe=
nt in English as well.<br>
{HIleghbe'moHQo'} "Don't make me not see"<br>
<br>
Anyway, to avoid this, use -Ha' instead. It can be use in imperatives.<=
br>
<br>
-- <br>
Lieven L. Litaer<br>
aka Quvar valer 'utlh<br>
Grammarian of the KLI<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher" rel=3D"noreferrer" targe=
t=3D"_blank">http://www.facebook.com/Klingo<wbr>nteacher</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://www.klingonwiki.net" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank"=
>http://www.klingonwiki.net</a><br>
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</blockquote></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div>
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