[109784] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] qep'a' webpage
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (SuStel)
Wed Jul 5 13:52:42 2017
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From: SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2017 13:52:08 -0400
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On 7/5/2017 1:26 PM, David Holt wrote:
>
> ghItlh mayqel qunenoS:
>
> >> DaH qep'a' ve'meH bonablaH.
>
>
> >If the {ve'} as a verb of movement follows the same rules with {jaH}, and the sentence
> refers to a single person, then..
>
> >shouldn't this be {DaH qep'a'Daq Dave'meH bInablaH} or {DaH qep'a' Da'vemeH bInablaH} ?
>
>
> Since the {bo-} prefix is used on the main verb, the sentence is not
> referring to a single person. To be safe, this should be, {DaH
> qep'a'Daq bove'meH bonablaH}. The {-Daq} is actually optional and
> should not be a point of contention or argument.
>
It's not that it's optional; it's that it's redundant. Let me use an
example that makes it clear what is an object and what isn't (assuming
*ve'* works like *jaH*).
*jIH muve'
*/he travels to me
/I am his destination. *jIH* is the object of *ve'.*
*jIHDaq ve'
*/he travels on me
/He's riding on my back, or something like that. The destination is
unstated. You can tell that *jIHDaq* is not the object of *ve'* because
the verb prefix agrees with /he/she/it/they/none./
*jIHDaq muve'
*/he travels to at-me; he travels to me-as-location
/This is grammatical; you're just marking /me/ explicitly as a location.
The verb prefix agrees with *jIHDaq* and shows that that's its object.
But since *ve'* includes the notion that its object is a location, this
is redundant. I have tried to reproduce its effect in the English
translation above. The Klingon is more formally grammatically correct
than the English.
Unfortunately, the line from the movie is simply *jIve'.* We don't
actually know whether it is a "verb of motion" or not. Since it is
compared to *leng,* which is a verb of motion, my money is on *ve'*
being one too.
--
SuStel
http://trimboli.name
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 7/5/2017 1:26 PM, David Holt wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DM5PR16MB18507CF52BEEC4C86356F4C5A4D40@DM5PR16MB1850.namprd16.prod.outlook.com">
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;">ghItlh mayqel qunenoS:</span></p>
<div>
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
</div>
<div>
<div dir="auto">
<p style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); margin-top: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; font-family: calibri, arial,
helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 17.12px;">
<span style="font-size:12pt">>> DaH qep'a' ve'meH
bonablaH.</span></p>
<p style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); margin-top: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; font-family: calibri, arial,
helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 17.12px;">
<span style="font-size:17.12px"><br>
</span></p>
<p style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); margin-top: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; font-family: calibri, arial,
helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 17.12px;">
<span style="font-size:17.12px">>If the {ve'} as a verb
of movement follows the same rules with {jaH}, and the
sentence refers to a single person, then..</span></p>
<p style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); margin-top: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; font-family: calibri, arial,
helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 17.12px;">
<span style="font-size: 17.12px;">>shouldn't this be
{DaH qep'a'Daq Dave'meH bInablaH} or {DaH qep'a'
Da'vemeH bInablaH} ?</span><br>
</p>
<p style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); margin-top: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; font-family: calibri, arial,
helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 17.12px;">
<span style="font-size:17.12px"><br>
</span></p>
<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><font
face="calibri, arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span
style="font-size: 17.12px;">Since the {bo-} prefix is
used on the main verb, the sentence is not
referring to a single person. To be safe, this should
be, {DaH qep'a'Daq bove'meH bonablaH}. The {-Daq} is
actually optional and should not be a point of
contention or argument.</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>It's not that it's optional; it's that it's redundant. Let me use
an example that makes it clear what is an object and what isn't
(assuming <b>ve'</b> works like <b>jaH</b>).</p>
<p><b>jIH muve'<br>
</b><i>he travels to me<br>
</i>I am his destination. <b>jIH</b> is the object of <b>ve'.</b><br>
</p>
<p><b>jIHDaq ve'<br>
</b><i>he travels on me<br>
</i>He's riding on my back, or something like that. The
destination is unstated. You can tell that <b>jIHDaq</b> is not
the object of <b>ve'</b> because the verb prefix agrees with <i>he/she/it/they/none.</i></p>
<p><b>jIHDaq muve'<br>
</b><i>he travels to at-me; he travels to me-as-location<br>
</i>This is grammatical; you're just marking <i>me</i> explicitly
as a location. The verb prefix agrees with <b>jIHDaq</b> and
shows that that's its object. But since <b>ve'</b> includes the
notion that its object is a location, this is redundant. I have
tried to reproduce its effect in the English translation above.
The Klingon is more formally grammatically correct than the
English.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, the line from the movie is simply <b>jIve'.</b>
We don't actually know whether it is a "verb of motion" or not.
Since it is compared to <b>leng,</b> which is a verb of motion,
my money is on <b>ve'</b> being one too.<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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