[109721] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] What is a sentence?
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (SuStel)
Sat Jun 10 20:03:23 2017
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To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
From: SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2017 20:02:49 -0400
In-Reply-To: <edd1c6cb-3461-474b-e5c1-d31fd87931f2@gmx.de>
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On 6/10/2017 4:47 PM, Lieven wrote:
> Am 10.06.2017 um 18:08 schrieb DloraH:
>> On Fri, 2017-06-09 at 21:58 +0200, Lieven wrote:
>>> Am 09.06.2017 um 21:03 schrieb SuStel:
>>>> Oh sure. I'm not saying that an SAO isn't two sentences. It clearly
>>>> is.
>>>> I'm saying that it's a sentence composed of sentences. It's both one
>>>> sentence and two.
>>>
>>> Since a verb using a sentence as object creates a new sentence, I think
>>> it's very clear that such a SAO-sentence can be the SAO in another
>>> sentence.
>>>
>>> {targh HoH vav DaneH 'e' vIyaj net Sov.}
>>> One knows that I understand you want your father to kill the targ.
>>>
>>> [[[[targh HoH vav] DaneH] 'e' vIyaj] net Sov.]
>>> [[[[the father kills the targ] you want that] I understand that] one
>>> knows it]
>>>
>>
>> But now add an adverbial to each sentence.
>
> That sounds like a true challenge. Theoretically, it should be nested
> like macros do in software, but that would look very strange:
>
> {reH targh HoH vav}
> "father always kills targ"
>
> DaH {reH targh HoH vav} 'e' vISov
> Now I know that "father always kills targ"
>
> I'm not sure that is based on anything canon.
Your sentence would properly be *reH targh HoH vav DaH 'e' vISov.*
One issue you'll often run into is that you have to be able to tell that
the adverbial/syntactic noun/time expression at the front applies to the
entire construction, rather than just the first sub-sentence. We have an
example of this in /paq'batlh:/*ghIq pum 'e' mev*//which only makes
sense as /then, he stops falling./ The *ghIq* applies to *pum 'e' mev,*
not just the *pum.* The sentence could have been written *pum ghIq 'e'
mev,* but for some reason it wasn't. My guess is that *pum 'e' mev* was
so small and tightly integrated it was thought of as a single unit.
--
SuStel
http://trimboli.name
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/10/2017 4:47 PM, Lieven wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:edd1c6cb-3461-474b-e5c1-d31fd87931f2@gmx.de"
type="cite">Am 10.06.2017 um 18:08 schrieb DloraH:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite" style="color: #000000;">On Fri, 2017-06-09
at 21:58 +0200, Lieven wrote:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite" style="color: #000000;">Am 09.06.2017 um
21:03 schrieb SuStel:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite" style="color: #000000;">Oh sure. I'm
not saying that an SAO isn't two sentences. It clearly is.
<br>
I'm saying that it's a sentence composed of sentences. It's
both one
<br>
sentence and two.
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Since a verb using a sentence as object creates a new
sentence, I think
<br>
it's very clear that such a SAO-sentence can be the SAO in
another sentence.
<br>
<br>
{targh HoH vav DaneH 'e' vIyaj net Sov.}
<br>
One knows that I understand you want your father to kill the
targ.
<br>
<br>
[[[[targh HoH vav] DaneH] 'e' vIyaj] net Sov.]
<br>
[[[[the father kills the targ] you want that] I understand
that] one
<br>
knows it]
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
But now add an adverbial to each sentence.
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
That sounds like a true challenge. Theoretically, it should be
nested like macros do in software, but that would look very
strange:
<br>
<br>
{reH targh HoH vav}
<br>
"father always kills targ"
<br>
<br>
DaH {reH targh HoH vav} 'e' vISov
<br>
Now I know that "father always kills targ"
<br>
<br>
I'm not sure that is based on anything canon.</blockquote>
<br>
<p>Your sentence would properly be <b>reH targh HoH vav DaH 'e'
vISov.</b></p>
<p>One issue you'll often run into is that you have to be able to
tell that the adverbial/syntactic noun/time expression at the
front applies to the entire construction, rather than just the
first sub-sentence. We have an example of this in <i>paq'batlh:</i><b>
ghIq pum 'e' mev</b><i> </i>which only makes sense as <i>then,
he stops falling.</i> The <b>ghIq</b> applies to <b>pum 'e'
mev,</b> not just the <b>pum.</b> The sentence could have been
written <b>pum ghIq 'e' mev,</b> but for some reason it wasn't.
My guess is that <b>pum 'e' mev</b> was so small and tightly
integrated it was thought of as a single unit.</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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