[109712] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] What is a sentence?
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (qurgh lungqIj)
Fri Jun 9 14:45:33 2017
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In-Reply-To: <73d13e28-3537-2dca-cf4d-69ff4d725eea@trimboli.name>
From: qurgh lungqIj <qurgh@wizage.net>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2017 14:45:07 -0400
To: "tlhIngan-Hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
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It seems that Okrand switches back and forth on this one. In TKD he clearly
defines them as two sentences and repeats that convention multiple times
throughout that section:
"Klingon has two special pronouns, 'e' and net, which refer to the *previous
sentence* as a whole"
"What is a single sentence in English is often* two sentences* in Klingon."
"This sentence is actually* two*:"
"The pronoun 'e' refers to the *previous sentence*, We kill prisoners."
"The* two sentences* here are:"
"The past tense of the translation (I saw...) comes from the verb in the*
first sentence*"
"When the verb of the *second sentence*"
"the* first sentence* here is qama'pu' DIHoH"
"The *second sentence* is net Sov"
"When the verb of the *second sentence* is neH"
Maybe it's a "complex sentence" made of "two sentences", so ultimately both
points of view would be true. I can try to remember to ask Okrand about
this at the qep'a'.
qurgh
On Fri, Jun 9, 2017 at 2:22 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
> I was thinking back to a previous argument about whether a
> sentence-as-object construction can itself be considered a "sentence" for
> when a rule in Klingon works on sentences. I went through some old text by
> Okrand and found this message:
>
> (1) You suggested translating "Do you think it's possible for a Klingon to
> feel love for a Ferengi?" as:
> verenganvaD bang HotmeH tlhIngan qIt 'e' DaQub'a'?
> The end of the sentence is fine. The correct way to say "Do you think
> that...?" is ... 'e' DaQub'a'? ('e' is "that," referring to something that
> precedes it in the sentence or in the discussion; DaQub'a' is "do you think
> it?").
>
> http://klingonska.org/canon/search/?file=1996-12-12b-news.txt&q=sentence
>
> *'e' DaQub'a'* is here referred to by Okrand as "the end of the
> sentence," and *'e'* refers to "something that precedes it in the
> sentence or in the discussion." We know *'e'* refers to the previous
> "sentence" of the construction, so the "sentence" that Okrand is referring
> to must be the entire construction. Okrand later refers to the entire
> construction as a sentence again.
>
> In another post, Okrand gave the sentence *tlhIngan Hol Dajatlh 'e' vISIv* *I
> wonder if you speak Klingon.* He goes on to say
>
> In English, this means something like "I'm surprised that you speak
> Klingon" or "I don't understand how it can be that you speak Klingon," but
> this is not what the Klingon sentence means. The Klingon sentence means
> something more like "I am curious about whether you speak Klingon."
>
> http://klingonska.org/canon/search/?file=1997-07-01-news.txt&q=sentence
>
> Again, he has called the entire thing a sentence. He then refers to "such
> sentences": "One other verb that can be used in the V slot in such
> sentences is Hon 'doubt'" (the "V slot" is the second sentence). Then he
> goes whole hog and talks about sentences within sentences: "I'll return on
> another occasion to the question of whether the sentence preceding the 'e'
> in such sentences can be a question."
>
> I haven't done a complete search, but I feel pretty confident that we can
> think of SAOs as sentences. They are "complex sentences," as named in the
> parent section of SAOs in TKD. Exactly how complicated the second
> sub-sentence is supposed to be and the exact placement of adverbials and
> dependent clauses might still be imperfectly resolved, of course.
>
> --
> SuStelhttp://trimboli.name
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">It seems that Okrand switches back and forth on this one. =
In TKD he clearly defines them as two sentences and repeats that convention=
multiple times throughout that section:<br><br>"Klingon has two speci=
al pronouns, 'e' and net, which refer to the <b>previous sentence</=
b> as a whole"<br><br>"What is a single sentence in English is of=
ten<b> two sentences</b> in Klingon."<br><br>"This sentence is ac=
tually<b> two</b>:"<div><br></div><div>"The pronoun 'e' r=
efers to the <b>previous sentence</b>, We kill prisoners."</div><div><=
br></div><div>"The<b> two sentences</b> here are:"</div><div><br>=
</div><div>"The past tense of the translation (I saw...) comes from th=
e verb in the<b> first sentence</b>"<br><br>"When the verb of the=
<b>second sentence</b>"<br><br>"the<b> first sentence</b> here i=
s qama'pu' DIHoH"<br><br>"The <b>second sentence</b> is n=
et Sov"<br><br>"When the verb of the <b>second sentence</b> is ne=
H"<br><br>Maybe it's a "complex sentence" made of "=
two sentences", so ultimately both points of view would be true. I can=
try to remember to ask Okrand about this at the qep'a'.</div><div>=
<br></div><div>qurgh<br><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div=
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Jun 9, 2017 at 2:22 PM, SuStel <span dir=3D"=
ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" target=3D"_blank">sustel@t=
rimboli.name</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
=20
=20
=20
<div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
<p>I was thinking back to a previous argument about whether a
sentence-as-object construction can itself be considered a
"sentence" for when a rule in Klingon works on sentences. I=
went
through some old text by Okrand and found this message: <br>
</p>
<blockquote>
<p>(1) You suggested translating "Do you think it's possible=
for a
Klingon to feel love for a Ferengi?" as:<br>
verenganvaD bang HotmeH tlhIngan qIt 'e' DaQub'a'?<=
br>
The end of the sentence is fine.=C2=A0 The correct way to say "=
;Do you
think that...?" is ... 'e' DaQub'a'? ('e&#=
39; is "that," referring
to something that precedes it in the sentence or in the
discussion; DaQub'a' is "do you think it?").</p>
<p><a class=3D"m_-1493055644295178754moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"h=
ttp://klingonska.org/canon/search/?file=3D1996-12-12b-news.txt&q=3Dsent=
ence" target=3D"_blank">http://klingonska.org/canon/<wbr>search/?file=3D199=
6-12-12b-news.<wbr>txt&q=3Dsentence</a><br>
</p>
</blockquote>
<p><b>'e' DaQub'a'</b> is here referred to by Okrand as=
"the end of
the sentence," and <b>'e'</b> refers to "something =
that precedes
it in the sentence or in the discussion." We know <b>'e'=
</b>
refers to the previous "sentence" of the construction, so t=
he
"sentence" that Okrand is referring to must be the entire
construction. Okrand later refers to the entire construction as a
sentence again.</p>
<p>In another post, Okrand gave the sentence <b>tlhIngan Hol
Dajatlh 'e' vISIv</b> <i>I wonder if you speak Klingon.</i>=
He
goes on to say</p>
<blockquote>
<p>In English, this means something like "I'm surprised that=
you
speak Klingon" or "I don't understand how it can be t=
hat you
speak Klingon," but this is not what the Klingon sentence
means.=C2=A0 The Klingon sentence means something more like "I=
am
curious about whether you speak Klingon."</p>
<p><a class=3D"m_-1493055644295178754moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"h=
ttp://klingonska.org/canon/search/?file=3D1997-07-01-news.txt&q=3Dsente=
nce" target=3D"_blank">http://klingonska.org/canon/<wbr>search/?file=3D1997=
-07-01-news.<wbr>txt&q=3Dsentence</a></p>
</blockquote>
<p>Again, he has called the entire thing a sentence. He then refers
to "such sentences": "One other verb that can be used =
in the V
slot in such sentences is Hon 'doubt'" (the "V slot=
" is the second
sentence). Then he goes whole hog and talks about sentences within
sentences: "I'll return on another occasion to the question =
of
whether the sentence preceding the 'e' in such sentences can =
be a
question."</p>
<p>I haven't done a complete search, but I feel pretty confident
that we can think of SAOs as sentences. They are "complex
sentences," as named in the parent section of SAOs in TKD. Exact=
ly
how complicated the second sub-sentence is supposed to be and the
exact placement of adverbials and dependent clauses might still be
imperfectly resolved, of course.<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D=
"#888888"><br>
</font></span></p><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">
<pre class=3D"m_-1493055644295178754moz-signature" cols=3D"72">--=20
SuStel
<a class=3D"m_-1493055644295178754moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http://tri=
mboli.name" target=3D"_blank">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
</font></span></div>
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><br>
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oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.<wbr>cgi/tlhinga=
n-hol-kli.org</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
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