[109708] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] The Second Coming
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (nIqolay Q)
Thu Jun 8 19:41:08 2017
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From: nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2017 19:41:04 -0400
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Cc: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
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On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 10:44 AM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
>
> I don't think you want -'a' for vast; that's more like tInqu'. Replace
> mIllogh'a''e' Delbogh qo' qa' with mIllogh tInqu' Delbogh Spiritus Mundi.
> Stick an -'e' on tInqu' if you're not concerned with any kind of meter and
> you think you need to disambiguate the head noun.
I had the line with {mIllogh tIn'e'} for a while. But then I thought that
the image is not merely vast, but also very significant and important -- no
mere ordinary image, but almost some kind of vision. So it might make sense
to use {-'a'} to convey that. I see your point about using the Latin rather
than translating Spiritus Mundi literally, though.
> I don't understand what stony sleep means in the original, but I'm not
sure
> that QongwI' let hard sleeper fits it. (When let says it means hard (like
a
> stone), that doesn't mean let means stone-like. It's disambiguating from
> hard (difficult).)
My interpretation of "stony sleep" was that the sleep was hard to disturb,
like a rock. We do know that {let} can be used metaphorically in a sense
like "unyielding" or "tough" - {let mInDu'Daj; Separmey rur}. In this
sense, {QongwI' let} was based on the same metaphor as "stony sleep". I had
a phrase with {nagh rurbogh} in the sentence for a while, but the line was
getting pretty ungainly at that point, so I replaced the relative clause
with a one-syllable adjective. (Well, one-syllable stative verb.)
On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 11:47 AM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
> Ooh! How about lIb pawpu'ghach cha'DIch the Second Coming is imminent.
{lIb} is a really good word. I do like the {tugh -bej} parallel I currently
have in the first two lines of that stanza. The original has a parallelism
too ("Surely... at hand") and it's always nice to be able to keep the
poetic structures of the original when translating. How about {tugh lIbbej
pawpu'ghach cha'DIch}? The {tugh} and {lIb} are a little redundant but it
does preserve the parallelism and also uses a much more interesting verb
than just {qaSbej}.
Here's a second draft, with some of the suggested changes (the ones that I
haven't argued about, at least):
pawpu'ghach cha'DIch
Sachbogh ghoDaq tlhe'taH 'oH.
wamwI' QoylaHbe' wammeH bo'Degh.
Sab Dochmey. ngaDlaHbe'taH botlh.
qo'Daq chutmey Hutlhbogh nugh'e' 'uchHa'lu'.
bIQ'a''e' HurghmoHbogh 'Iw 'uchHa'lu' 'ej Dat
chuntaHghach tay SoD bIQ'a'.
pagh Har nIvqu'wI'pu' 'ach
pe'vIl nongqu' QIvqu'wI'pu'.
tugh vay' 'anglu'bej.
tugh lIbbej pawpu'ghach cha'DIch.
pawpu'ghach cha'DIch! mu'meyvetlh vIjatlhpu'DI'
SIbI' mInDu'wIj Suj
mIllogh'a''e' Delbogh *Spiritus Mundi*.
Deb voghDaq QIt 'uSDu'Daj vIHmoH
vIghro''a' porgh, loD nach je ghajbogh tu'qom.
pagh 'agh lumInDu'Daj 'ej vupbe' bIH. jul lurur.
Dechbogh retlhDajDaq jIr Deb bo'Deghmey QeH QIbmey.
pumqa' QIb 'ach
cha'SaD DIS poH QongwI' let
najHa'moHpu' Davbogh ghu QongDaq DaH 'e' vISov.
'ej tagha' repDaj lop Ha'DIbaH naH
'ej boghmeH betle'HemDaq QIt yItHa'lI'.
> majQa'! This is the sort of translation I like: you've done a close
reading
> of the original and remained sensitive to what the poet was trying to
> convey, rather than just convert the words grammatically. You tried to
> replicate the feel of the poem in flow and concept without being
> ungrammatical with a call-out to poetic license as an excuse for things
you
> couldn't make work.
Thank you!
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<div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 10:44 AM, SuStel <<a href=3D"mai=
lto:sustel@trimboli.name">sustel@trimboli.name</a>> wrote:<br>><br>&g=
t; I don't think you want -'a' for vast; that's more like t=
Inqu'. Replace<br>> mIllogh'a''e' Delbogh qo' qa=
' with mIllogh tInqu' Delbogh Spiritus Mundi.<br>> Stick an -=
9;e' on tInqu' if you're not concerned with any kind of meter a=
nd<br>> you think you need to disambiguate the head noun.<br><br>I had t=
he line with {mIllogh tIn'e'} for a while. But then I thought that =
the image is not merely vast, but also very significant and important -- no=
mere ordinary image, but almost some kind of vision. So it might make sens=
e to use {-'a'} to convey that. I see your point about using the La=
tin rather than translating Spiritus Mundi literally, though.<br><br>> I=
don't understand what stony sleep means in the original, but I'm n=
ot sure<br>> that QongwI' let hard sleeper fits it. (When let says i=
t means hard (like a<br>> stone), that doesn't mean let means stone-=
like. It's disambiguating from<br>> hard (difficult).)<br><br>My int=
erpretation of "stony sleep" was that the sleep was hard to distu=
rb, like a rock. We do know that {let} can be used metaphorically in a sens=
e like "unyielding" or "tough" - {let mInDu'Daj; Se=
parmey rur}. In this sense, {QongwI' let} was based on the same metapho=
r as "stony sleep". I had a phrase with {nagh rurbogh} in the sen=
tence for a while, but the line was getting pretty ungainly at that point, =
so I replaced the relative clause with a one-syllable adjective. (Well, one=
-syllable stative verb.)<br><br>On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 11:47 AM, SuStel <=
;<a href=3D"mailto:sustel@trimboli.name">sustel@trimboli.name</a>> wrote=
:<br>> Ooh! How about lIb pawpu'ghach cha'DIch the Second Coming=
is imminent.<br><br>{lIb} is a really good word. I do like the {tugh -bej}=
parallel I currently have in the first two lines of that stanza. The origi=
nal has a parallelism too ("Surely... at hand") and it's alwa=
ys nice to be able to keep the poetic structures of the original when trans=
lating. How about {tugh lIbbej pawpu'ghach cha'DIch}? The {tugh} an=
d {lIb} are a little redundant but it does preserve the parallelism and als=
o uses a much more interesting verb than just {qaSbej}.<br><br>Here's a=
second draft, with some of the suggested changes (the ones that I haven=
9;t argued about, at least):<br><br>pawpu'ghach cha'DIch<br><br>Sac=
hbogh ghoDaq tlhe'taH 'oH.<br>wamwI' QoylaHbe' wammeH bo=
9;Degh.<br>Sab Dochmey. ngaDlaHbe'taH botlh.<br>qo'Daq chutmey Hutl=
hbogh nugh'e' 'uchHa'lu'.<br>bIQ'a''e' =
HurghmoHbogh 'Iw 'uchHa'lu' 'ej Dat<br>chuntaHghach tay=
SoD bIQ'a'.<br>pagh Har nIvqu'wI'pu' 'ach<br>pe=
9;vIl nongqu' QIvqu'wI'pu'.<br><br>tugh vay' 'anglu=
'bej.<br>tugh lIbbej pawpu'ghach cha'DIch.<br>pawpu'ghach c=
ha'DIch! mu'meyvetlh vIjatlhpu'DI'<br>SIbI' mInDu'w=
Ij Suj<br>mIllogh'a''e' Delbogh <i>Spiritus Mundi</i>.<br>D=
eb voghDaq QIt 'uSDu'Daj vIHmoH<br>vIghro''a' porgh, lo=
D nach je ghajbogh tu'qom.<br>pagh 'agh lumInDu'Daj 'ej vup=
be' bIH. jul lurur.<br>Dechbogh retlhDajDaq jIr Deb bo'Deghmey QeH =
QIbmey.<br>pumqa' QIb 'ach<br>cha'SaD DIS poH QongwI' let<b=
r>najHa'moHpu' Davbogh ghu QongDaq DaH 'e' vISov.<br>'e=
j tagha' repDaj lop Ha'DIbaH naH<br>'ej boghmeH betle'HemDa=
q QIt yItHa'lI'.<br><br>> majQa'! This is the sort of transl=
ation I like: you've done a close reading<br>> of the original and r=
emained sensitive to what the poet was trying to<br>> convey, rather tha=
n just convert the words grammatically. You tried to<br>> replicate the =
feel of the poem in flow and concept without being<br>> ungrammatical wi=
th a call-out to poetic license as an excuse for things you<br>> couldn&=
#39;t make work.<br><br>Thank you!</div>
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