[109333] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh!
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Felix Malmenbeck)
Sat Mar 25 09:43:45 2017
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
From: Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se>
To: "tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org>,
"tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2017 13:39:22 +0000
In-Reply-To: <59321226-2b63-ff06-42be-cf102c558acd@trimboli.name>
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
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=3D=3D DISCUSSION ONLY =3D=3D
> We can say DorDI' Hogh and we generally accept taghDI' Hogh,
> so I'm not devastated by this lack. (I wouldn't mind a verb for
> begin [a period of time does this].)
There is quite a lot of canon support for {tagh} having a dual syntax:
tagh [event]. =3D "[Event] begins."
[event] tagh [agent]. =3D "[Agent] starts [event]."
Examples:
taghbej mu'qaD veS.
"Curse warfare has definitely begun." (PK)
Qu' DataghDI' 'aqtu' mellota' je tIqaw.
"When you begin a mission, remember Aktuh and Melota." (TKW)
qeylIS qeylIS qeylIS
wanI' vItaghbogh vIrInmoH
bIHeghqu'
(paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 15, Stanza 5)
QIStaq 'emDaq jenchoH jul
yor DungDaq Salta'DI'
tagh HarghchuqmeH poH
(paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 22, Stanza 2 & 4)
DaH wanI' potlh taghlu'
tIqDu'Daj DuQqu'meH qeylIS
ma'veq cha' 'etlhmey jop
(paq'batlh, paq'QIH, Canto 3, Stanza 6)
There's also the very first stanza of the prologue, written in no' Hol:
tog'det q'uti 'qoolit
'usru Dya 'qinmaa Dya q'op Dya at
q'uty qoot'ag'
"It began with destruction of everything,
Energy, gods, matter,
Everything will eventually destroy itself."
(paq'batlh, lut cherlu', Canto 1, Stanza 1)
Reconstruction (speculative, by me):
taghDI' Hoch QIHlu'
HoS'e' Qunpu''e' Hap'e' je
QIH'egh Hoch
The word tog' is also repeated in an incomplete stanza:
Durmut
tog'
tyan [...]
"Out of the end
Came the beginning,
... creation."
(paq'batlh, lut cherlu', Canto 3, Stanza 1)
Reconstruction (speculative, by me):
Dormo'
tagh
chen [...]
So, assuming that tog' is an archaic form (or cognate) of tagh, it seems th=
is meaning of the word goes back a long way!
It's worth noting that paq'batlh also uses bI'reS in a broader sense than r=
eferring just to opera or songs:
bI'reS qeylIS vaq molor
ghIq qeylIS juHHom ghoS qotar
'ej qeylIS mong 'uchchoH
"First, Molor taunts Kahless"
[...]
(paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 14, Stanza 6)
may' bI'reS bejtaHvIS mon
ghIq pum QaSDaj law' 'e' legh
ghIq qempa'QeH legh
[I don't have the translation handy, but something like "He smiled as he wa=
tched the battle begin".]
(paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 18, Stanza 3)
So, there is some cause to believe that bI'reS is more general than we've p=
reviously thought. However, seeing as this is still in the context of opera=
, I'm taking it with a pinch of salt.
In my own, highly dubious, head canon, I like to imagine that bI'reS is a s=
omewhat archaic word which used to refer to a beginning of any sort, but wh=
ich in 24th century Klingon is only heard in certain contexts, such as oper=
a. That would make the word less useful, but I think it adds flavor to the =
language.
________________________________
From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of SuStel=
<sustel@trimboli.name>
Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2017 12:54
To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh!
On 3/25/2017 3:58 AM, Lieven wrote:
=3D=3D WORD WISH =3D=3D
beginning (n)
end (n)
as in "end of the week", "end of the world", "the end of a nice evening", "=
the end of an event"...
The definitions for {bI'reS} and {bertlham} include a note that they are on=
ly used in songs and operas etc.
I feel wrong when talking about the weekend as {Hogh bertlham}.
We can say DorDI' Hogh and we generally accept taghDI' Hogh, so I'm not dev=
astated by this lack. (I wouldn't mind a verb for begin [a period of time d=
oes this].)
--
SuStel
http://trimboli.name
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<p>=3D=3D DISCUSSION ONLY =3D=3D</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>> We can say <strong>DorDI' Hogh</strong> and we generally accept <st=
rong>taghDI' Hogh,</strong></p>
<p>> so I'm not devastated by this lack. (I wouldn't mind a verb for<em>=
<br>
</em></p>
<p><em>> begin [a period of time does this]</em>.)<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>There is quite a lot of canon support for {tagh} having a dual syntax:<b=
r>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><strong>tagh </strong>[event]. =3D "[Event] begins."</p>
<p>[event] <strong>tagh</strong> [agent]. =3D "[Agent] starts [ev=
ent]."</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Examples:<br>
<br>
<strong>taghbej mu'qaD veS.</strong></p>
<p>"Curse warfare has definitely begun." (PK)</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><strong>Qu' DataghDI' 'aqtu' mellota' je tIqaw.</strong></p>
<p>"When you begin a mission, remember Aktuh and Melota." (TKW)</=
p>
<p><br>
</p>
<strong>qeylIS qeylIS qeylIS</strong><br>
<strong> wanI’ vItaghbogh vIrInmoH</strong><br=
>
<strong> bIHeghqu’</strong>
<p><br>
</p>
<p> (paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 15, Stanza 5)</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<strong>QIStaq ‘emDaq jenchoH jul</strong><br>
<strong> yor DungDaq Salta’DI’</strong><=
br>
<strong> tagh HarghchuqmeH poH</strong>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>(paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 22, Stanza 2 & 4)</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<strong>DaH wanI' potlh taghlu'</strong><br>
<strong> tIqDu'Daj DuQqu'meH qeylIS</strong><br>
<strong> ma'veq cha' 'etlhmey jop</strong><br>
<br>
(paq'batlh, paq'QIH, Canto 3, Stanza 6)<br>
<br>
There's also the very first stanza of the prologue, written in no' Hol:<br>
<br>
<em>tog’det q’uti ‘qoolit</em><br>
<em> ‘usru Dya ‘qinmaa Dya q’op Dy=
a at</em><br>
<em> q’uty qoot’ag’</em><br>
<p><br>
</p>
"It began with destruction of everything,<br>
Energy, gods, matter,<br>
Everything will eventually destroy itself."<br>
<br>
(paq'batlh, lut cherlu', Canto 1, Stanza 1)<br>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Reconstruction (speculative, by me):</p>
<p><strong>taghDI' Hoch QIHlu'<br>
</strong></p>
<p><strong> HoS'e' Qunpu''e' Hap'e' je<br>
</strong></p>
<p><strong> </strong><strong>QIH'egh Hoch<br>
</strong></p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>The word <em>tog'</em> is also repeated in an incomplete stanza:</p=
>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><em>Durmut<br>
</em></p>
<p><em> tog'</em><br>
<em> tyan [...]</em></p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>"Out of the end</p>
<p> Came the beginning,</p>
<p> ... creation."</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>(paq'batlh, lut cherlu', Canto 3, Stanza 1)</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Reconstruction (speculative, by me):</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><strong>Dormo'<br>
</strong></p>
<p><strong> tagh<br>
</strong></p>
<p><strong> chen </strong>[...]<br>
</p>
<p><br>
<strong></strong></p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>So, assuming that <em>tog'</em> is an archaic form (or cognate) of <stro=
ng>tagh</strong>, it seems this meaning of the word goes back a long way!<b=
r>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>It's worth noting that paq'batlh also uses <strong>bI'reS</strong> =
in a broader sense than referring just to opera or songs:</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><strong>bI'reS qeylIS vaq molor<br>
</strong></p>
<strong> ghIq qeylIS juHHom ghoS qotar</strong><br>
<strong> ‘ej qeylIS mong ‘uchchoH</stron=
g>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>"First, Molor taunts Kahless"</p>
<p>[...]</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>(paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 14, Stanza 6)</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><strong></strong></p>
<strong>may’ bI’reS bejtaHvIS mon</strong><br>
<strong> ghIq pum QaSDaj law’ ‘e’ =
legh</strong><br>
<strong> ghIq qempa’QeH legh</strong>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>[I don't have the translation handy, but something like "He smiled =
as he watched the battle begin".]<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>(paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 18, Stanza 3)<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>So, there is some cause to believe that <strong>bI'reS</strong> is more =
general than we've previously thought. However, seeing as this is still in =
the context of opera, I'm taking it with a pinch of salt.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>In my own, highly dubious, head canon, I like to imagine that <stro=
ng>bI'reS</strong> is a somewhat archaic word which <em>used</em> to r=
efer to a beginning of any sort, but which in 24th century Klingon is =
only heard in certain contexts, such as opera.
That would make the word less useful, but I think it adds flavor to the la=
nguage.
<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33);">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font style=3D"font-size:11pt" face=
=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> tlhIngan-Hol <tl=
hingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of SuStel <sustel@trimbol=
i.name><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, March 25, 2017 12:54<br>
<b>To:</b> tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh!</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 3/25/2017 3:58 AM, Lieven wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">=3D=3D WORD WISH =3D=3D <br>
<br>
beginning (n) <br>
end (n) <br>
<br>
as in "end of the week", "end of the world", "the =
end of a nice evening", "the end of an event"...
<br>
<br>
The definitions for {bI'reS} and {bertlham} include a note that they are on=
ly used in songs and operas etc.
<br>
<br>
I feel wrong when talking about the weekend as {Hogh bertlham}. <br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>We can say <b>DorDI' Hogh</b> and we generally accept <b>taghDI' Hogh,</=
b> so I'm not devastated by this lack. (I wouldn't mind a verb for
<i>begin [a period of time does this]</i>.)<br>
</p>
<pre class=3D"moz-signature" cols=3D"72">-- =0A=
SuStel=0A=
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http://trimboli.name">http://tri=
mboli.name</a></pre>
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