[109286] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh!
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Felix Malmenbeck)
Wed Mar 22 20:29:09 2017
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
From: Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se>
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 00:29:02 +0000
In-Reply-To: <1490224979876.44017@kth.se>
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
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=3D=3D WORD REQUEST MESSAGE =3D=3D
- talk about, discuss (verb)
Example sentences:
(1) "I enjoy talking about Klingon."
(2) "We spoke about the fact that bicycles are evil."
(3) "What are y'all talking about?"
(4) "I visited the restaurant that you told me about."
(5) "Why is our CO so unwilling to talk about the space station that our en=
emies destroyed?"
(6) "She refuses to talk about the project she's working on."
(7) "That blowhard talks about himself too much."
(8) "Those lovers talk about each other too much."
Arguably, these could be handled using {QIch} and {bop}, but I'm not entire=
ly certain if {QIch} really describes the content of a conversation or more=
the act of speech itself.
Going through my example sentences using existing vocabulary, I'd do someth=
ing like:
(1) tlhIngan Hol bopbogh QIch'e' vIjatlhtaH 'e' vItIv.
(2) mIgh qam Do Dujmey 'e' bopbogh QIch'e' wIjatlh.
(3) nuq boptaH QIchraj?
(4) Qe''e' bopbogh QIch chojatlhta'bogh vISuchta'.
(5) tengchaH'e' luSangta'bogh jaghpu'ma' bopbogh QIch jatlhqangbe'qu' ra'wI=
'ma'. qatlh?
(6) jInmol turtaHbogh bopbogh QIch'e' mujatlhQo'.
(7) tlhoy 'eDjenvetlh bop QIchDaj. / jatlhtaHvIS 'eDjenvetlh tlhoy buS'egh.
(8) parmaqqaypu'vetlh'e', jatlhtaHvIS vay', tlhoy pIj latlh bop QIchDaj.
Using the dummy word [KZ=D6F], meaning "talk about, discuss", we instead ha=
ve:
(1) tlhIngan Hol vI[KZ=D6F]taH 'e' vItIv.
(2) mIgh qam Do Dujmey 'e' wI[KZ=D6F].
(3) nuq bo[KZ=D6F]taH?
(4) Qe''e' cho[KZ=D6F]ta'bogh vISuchta'.
(5) tengchaH'e' luSangta'bogh jaghpu'ma' [KZ=D6F]qangbe'qu' ra'wI'ma'. qatl=
h?
(6) jInmol turtaHbogh mu[KZ=D6F]Qo'.
(7) tlhoy [KZ=D6F]'egh 'eDjenvetlh.
(8) tlhoy [KZ=D6F]chuq parmaqqaypu'vetlh.
Having a word like [KZ=D6F] doesn't save you all that much time, but it's s=
till something that I feel would be quite convenient to have, especially on=
ce you start getting into more reflexive subjects and subordinate clauses (=
like "people who talk about each other").
On the other hand, NOT having such a word does force us to rethink the thin=
gs we say, which has some virtue in and of itself. And certainly, it's well=
within Marc's prerogative to simply say "There isn't a word for that.", an=
d that would be an interesting piece of canon in and of itself.
Lastly, it should be mentioned that {ja'chuq} is glossed as "discuss, confe=
r", and in paq'batlh, Molor actually appears to use it to mean "talk about"=
:
petaQ'a' SoH
bIlay'DI' qaHarbe'
quv HIja'chuqQo'
> You dirty p'takh,
> Your word means nothing to me,
> Don't speak to me of honor!
There has been some discussion about this on the mailing list before, and w=
hile opinions seem to diverge, it's clear that it's not a universally accep=
ted usage; some believe it to be a look-up error, while others think it's a=
n example of a derived term that's taken on a new meaning and syntax of its=
own (similar to lo'laH and lo'laHbe').
So, if this suggestion does make it onto the list of requested words, it wo=
uld be good to include a note about this, so that Marc can either confirm o=
r reject it.
________________________________
From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Felix =
Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se>
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 00:22
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org; a.appleyard@btinternet.com
Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh!
=3D=3D DISCUSSION ONLY: No new requests in this message. =3D=3D
>> mob qeylIS ngeng HeHDaq yIt
>> And Kahless was alone walking along the shore (PB)
> Should this be {mob ngeng HeHDaq yIt qeylIS} ?
The full stanza is:
mob qeylIS
ngeng HeHDaq yIt
SanDaj buS vaj 'It
The text of paq'batlh is mostly devoid of punctuation, but given both the g=
rammar and the line breaks, it's probably safe to assume that the Klingon t=
ext of the first two lines could be divided as: {mob qeylIS. ngeng HeHDaq y=
It. SanDaj buS, vaj 'It.}
A more literal translation of the Klingon text would probably be "Kahless w=
as alone. He walked by the lake's shore."
You could also have {mob. ngeng HeHDaq yIt qeylIS.} ("He was alone. Kahless=
walked by the lake's shore.")
However, I think that's a bit less clear; Morath is also involved in this c=
anto, so it's a good idea to clarify that you're talking about Kahless soon=
er rather than later.
________________________________
From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Anthon=
y Appleyard <a.appleyard@btinternet.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 00:05
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh!
Should this be {mob ngeng HeHDaq yIt qeylIS} ?
----Original message----
From : sboozer@uchicago.edu
Date : 22/03/2017 - 17:22 (GMTST)
To : tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Subject : Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh!
shore (lake) :
mob qeylIS ngeng HeHDaq yIt
And Kahless was alone walking along the shore (PB)
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FFFFF;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;">
<p>=3D=3D WORD REQUEST MESSAGE =3D=3D</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>- talk about, discuss (verb)</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Example sentences:</p>
<p>(1) "I enjoy talking about Klingon."</p>
<p>(2) "We spoke about the fact that bicycles are evil."</p>
<p>(3) "What are y'all talking about?"</p>
<p>(4) "I visited the restaurant that you told me about."</p>
<p>(5) "Why is our CO so unwilling to talk about the space station tha=
t our enemies destroyed?"<br>
</p>
<p>(6) "She refuses to talk about the project she's working on."<=
br>
</p>
<p>(7) "That blowhard talks about himself too much."</p>
<p>(8) "Those lovers talk about each other too much."</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Arguably, these could be handled using {QIch} and {bop}, but I'm not ent=
irely certain if {QIch} really describes the content of a conversation or m=
ore the act of speech itself.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Going through my example sentences using existing vocabulary, I'd do som=
ething like:</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>(1) tlhIngan Hol bopbogh QIch'e' vIjatlhtaH 'e' vItIv.</p>
<p>(2) mIgh qam Do Dujmey 'e' bopbogh QIch'e' wIjatlh.<br>
</p>
<p>(3) nuq boptaH QIchraj?</p>
<p>(4) Qe''e' bopbogh QIch chojatlhta'bogh vISuchta'.</p>
<p>(5) tengchaH'e' luSangta'bogh jaghpu'ma' bopbogh QIch jatlhqangbe'qu' ra=
'wI'ma'. qatlh?<br>
</p>
<p>(6) jInmol turtaHbogh bopbogh QIch'e' mujatlhQo'. <br>
</p>
<p>(7) tlhoy 'eDjenvetlh bop QIchDaj. / jatlhtaHvIS 'eD=
jenvetlh tlhoy buS'egh.</p>
<p>(8) parmaqqaypu'vetlh'e', jatlhtaHvIS vay', tlhoy pIj&nbs=
p;latlh bop QIchDaj. <br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Using the dummy word [KZ=D6F], meaning "talk about, discuss", =
we instead have:</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>(1) tlhIngan Hol vI[KZ=D6F]taH 'e' vItIv.</p>
<p>(2) mIgh qam Do Dujmey 'e' wI[KZ=D6F].</p>
<p>(3) nuq bo[KZ=D6F]taH?</p>
<p>(4) Qe''e' cho[KZ=D6F]ta'bogh vISuchta'.</p>
<p>(5) tengchaH'e' luSangta'bogh jaghpu'ma' [KZ=D6F]qangbe'qu' ra'wI'ma'. q=
atlh?<br>
</p>
<p>(6) jInmol turtaHbogh mu[KZ=D6F]Qo'.</p>
<p>(7) tlhoy [KZ=D6F]'egh 'eDjenvetlh.</p>
<p>(8) tlhoy [KZ=D6F]chuq parmaqqaypu'vetlh.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Having a word like [KZ=D6F] doesn't save you all that much time, but it'=
s still something that I feel would be quite convenient to have, especially=
once you start getting into more reflexive subjects and subordin=
ate clauses (like "people who talk about each
other"). <br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>On the other hand, NOT having such a word does force us to rethink the t=
hings we say, which has some virtue in and of itself. And certainly, it's w=
ell within Marc's prerogative to simply say "There isn't a word for th=
at.", and that would be an interesting
piece of canon in and of itself.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Lastly, it should be mentioned that {ja'chuq} is glossed as "discus=
s, confer", and in paq'batlh, Molor actually appears to use it to mean=
"talk about":<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>petaQ'a' SoH<br>
bIlay'DI' qaHarbe'<br>
quv HIja'chuqQo'</p>
<p><br>
> You dirty p'takh,<br>
> Your word means nothing to me,<br>
> Don't speak to me of honor!<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>There has been some discussion about this on the mailing list before, an=
d while opinions seem to diverge, it's clear that it's not a universally ac=
cepted usage; some believe it to be a look-up error, while others think it'=
s an example of a derived term that's
taken on a new meaning and syntax of its own (similar to lo'laH and lo'laH=
be').</p>
<p>So, if this suggestion does make it onto the list of requested words, it=
would be good to include a note about this, so that Marc can either c=
onfirm or reject it.
<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-size:12pt; color:#000000; background-color:#=
FFFFFF; font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font style=3D"font-size:11pt" face=
=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> tlhIngan-Hol <tl=
hingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Felix Malmenbeck <feli=
xm@kth.se><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 23, 2017 00:22<br>
<b>To:</b> tlhingan-hol@kli.org; a.appleyard@btinternet.com<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh!</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<p>=3D=3D <span class=3D"il">DISCUSSION</span> <span class=3D"il">ONLY</spa=
n>: No new requests in this message. =3D=3D<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>>> mob qeylIS ngeng HeHDaq yIt<br>
>> And Kahless was alone walking along the shore (PB)<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>> Should this be {mob ngeng HeHDaq yIt qeylIS} ?<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>The full stanza is:</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>mob qeylIS</p>
<p>ngeng HeHDaq yIt</p>
<p>SanDaj buS vaj 'It<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>The text of paq'batlh is mostly devoid of punctuation, but given both th=
e grammar and the line breaks, it's probably safe to assume that the Klingo=
n text of the first two lines could be divided as: {mob qeylIS. ngeng HeHDa=
q yIt. SanDaj buS, vaj 'It.}</p>
<p>A more literal translation of the Klingon text would probably be "K=
ahless was alone. He walked by the lake's shore."<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>You could also have {mob. ngeng HeHDaq yIt qeylIS.} ("He was alone.=
Kahless walked by the lake's shore.")</p>
<p>However, I think that's a bit less clear; Morath is also involved in thi=
s canto, so it's a good idea to clarify that you're tal=
king about Kahless sooner rather than later.
<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font style=3D"font-size:11pt" face=
=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> tlhIngan-Hol <tl=
hingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Anthony Appleyard <a.a=
ppleyard@btinternet.com><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 23, 2017 00:05<br>
<b>To:</b> tlhingan-hol@kli.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh!</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-se=
rif; color:#44546A">Should this be {mob ngeng HeHDaq yIt
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-=
serif; color:#44546A">qeylIS}
</span>?<br>
<br>
----Original message----<br>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-right:0px; margin-left:15px">From : sboozer@uch=
icago.edu<br>
Date : 22/03/2017 - 17:22 (GMTST)<br>
To : tlhingan-hol@kli.org<br>
Subject : Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh!<br>
<br>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"A=
rial",sans-serif; color:#44546A">shore (lake) :<br>
<br>
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"A=
rial",sans-serif; color:#44546A">mob qeylIS ngeng HeHDaq yIt
<br>
And Kahless was alone walking along the shore (PB)</span><br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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