[109282] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh!
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Felix Malmenbeck)
Wed Mar 22 15:56:16 2017
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
From: Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se>
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>,
"tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org>
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 19:55:58 +0000
In-Reply-To: <1490185148186.3710@kth.se>
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
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=3D=3D WORD REQUEST MESSAGE =3D=3D
- be submerged [in] (verb)
Examples of things I'd like to be able to say:
* "When you start the experiment, fully submerge the specimen in acid."
* "Because of the storm, my house was somewhat submerged (in water)."
* "He is afraid of being submerged (in water)."
* "The spy submerged herself (in water) in order to hide."
* "Beware of submerged mines."
You might also distinguish between underwater swimming and surface swimming=
by saying "swims while submerged" and "swims while not submerged".
Of course, the gloss "be submerged (verb)" is only a suggestion. You might =
also consider glosses such as "submerge, place underwater (verb)" or "immer=
se (verb)", or even an 'adjectival' verb such as "be submerged [in] (verb)"=
.
Non-verb alternatives (or supplements) might be a noun such as "area underw=
ater, area below the surface of a liquid (noun)" or even an adverb such as =
"under-liquidly, taking place while submerged in liquid".
However, I feel verbs are very handy because we have so many different ways=
to modify them using various affixes and adverbs, allowing us to make dist=
inctions such as "slightly submerged", "almost completely submerged" or "sl=
owly progressing towards fully submerging oneself for the purpose of hiding=
" with relative ease.
The word would not necessarily have to be limited to liquids; it might also=
refer to being immersed in a gas (such as air, or an alien atmosphere) or =
a solid (such as sand or snow), or even a plasma or a vacuum.
Possible workarounds using existing vocabulary might include words such as =
{Dech}, {vel}, {qat}, {ngaS} and {HaH}. However, after considering these al=
ternatives, I still feel that having a canonical word specifically for comp=
lete submersion/immersion would be quite handy:
* {Dech} - This doesn't really cut it, because an island is surrounded by w=
ater, but if it is *submerged* in water then it's not much of an island any=
more. Likewise, in a desert, you would be surrounded by sand, but you'd bes=
t avoid being submerged in it.
* {vel} - This is closer to the intended meaning, but I still don't quite f=
eel it covers the intended meaning. When I've gone for a swim and am coming=
up on land, I will be covered in water until I've had time to dry. If it i=
s raining, I'll probably remain covered in water until I've found shelter.
* {qat} - This comes quite close to the intended meaning, but I'm not sure =
it's quite there. A {qatwI'} may be just a thin layer, which I don't really=
think covers (hehe) the intended meaning of being placed into an environme=
nt filled with a substance.
* {ngaS} - This, I feel, comes the closest to encapsulating (hehe) the inte=
nded meaning, and is probably what I'd use for most situations given what's=
currently available. However, I feel it sort of suffers from the same issu=
e as {qat}; a {ngaSwI'} is often just a (relatively) thin layer, rather tha=
n an environment.
* {HaH} - This makes sense for some possible uses of the word "submerge(d)"=
, but given the definition "marinade, soak, drench", it seems the focus is =
quite specific; you're saturating something with liquid, which doesn't feel=
right for describing, say, a spy who is submerging herself for the purpose=
of remaining undetected, or designing an underwater weapon, where soaking =
is usually a design challenge to be overcome.
________________________________
From: Felix Malmenbeck
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 13:19
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org; tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org; a.appleyard@btinterne=
t.com
Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh!
I wonder if maybe we should start flagging our e-mails to make it easier fo=
r qurgh to filter out the ones that don't contain any new requests to add t=
o his list. Something like:
=3D=3D DISCUSSION ONLY: No new requests in this message. =3D=3D
> peDwI' may mean:-
> - V:snow VS9:[agent|instrument]
There is some conflicting evidence regarding what the subject and object of=
{SIS}, which likely has a syntax similar to {peD}:
According to an e-mail by Roger Cheesbro:
> All correct. SISlu', altho grammaticlly correct, he didn't particularly
> like. Someone COULD use it but to me it sounds like they skipped science
> class and don't know what the subject is. You can also give it an object
> and say things like the clouds rained down cats and dogs. ...or something
> like that; you get the idea. But when Marc and I went outside and drops
> of water were falling on us, he looked up and simply said "SIS".
This would indicate that a {SISwI'} would actually be a rain cloud, rather =
than the rain itself, which would be {bIQ SISlu'bogh}.
However, in paq'batlh (paq'raD, Canto 13, Stanza 6), we have the sentence {=
chaHDaq SIStaHvIS 'Iw}, indicating that rainwater may indeed be described a=
s {SISwI'}.
It's very possible that {SIS} (and {peD}) have some sort of dual syntax, wh=
ere context and common sense dictate which reading is correct.
It's also worth noting that when it comes to rain and snow, the clouds and =
the matter that falls from them is really one and the same; just at differe=
nt stages. (Well, at least for the most part; a meteorologist may know of s=
ome exceptions to this.)
In any event, I fully support the request for a word for snow, whether it's=
a canonized modification of a known word or a whole new one.
________________________________
From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Anthon=
y Appleyard <a.appleyard@btinternet.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 07:28
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org; tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh!
peDwI' may mean:-
- V:snow VS9:[agent|instrument]
Nahuatl does the same: [tonatiuh] =3D "the sun" is an agent of a verb root =
that means "for the sun to shine".
----Original message----
From : sustel@trimboli.name
Date : 21/03/2017 - 15:08 (GMTST)
To : tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
Subject : Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh!
I think you are. Someone asked for the noun for snow, ...
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<p>=3D=3D WORD REQUEST MESSAGE =3D=3D</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>- be submerged [in] (verb)</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Examples of things I'd like to be able to say:</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>* "When you start the experiment, fully submerge the specimen in ac=
id."</p>
<p>* "Because of the storm, my house was somewhat submerged (in w=
ater)."</p>
<p>* "He is afraid of being submerged (in water)."</p>
<p>* "The spy submerged herself (in water) in order to hide."</p>
<p>* "Beware of submerged mines."<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>You might also distinguish between underwater swimming and surface swimm=
ing by saying "swims while submerged" and "swims while not s=
ubmerged".</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Of course, the gloss "be submerged (verb)" is only a suggestio=
n. You might also consider glosses such as "submerge, place underwater=
(verb)" or "immerse (verb)", or even an 'adjectival' verb s=
uch as "be submerged [in] (verb)".</p>
<p>Non-verb alternatives (or supplements) might be a noun such as =
;"area underwater, area below the surface of a liquid (noun)" or =
even an adverb such as "under-liquidly, taking place while submerged i=
n liquid".</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>However, I feel verbs are very handy because we have so many differ=
ent ways to modify them using various affixes and adverbs, allowi=
ng us to make distinctions such as "slightly submerged"=
, "almost completely submerged" or "slowly progres=
sing towards fully
submerging oneself for the purpose of hiding" with relative ease.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>The word would not necessarily have to be limited to liquids; it might a=
lso refer to being immersed in a gas (such as air, or an alien atmosphere) =
or a solid (such as sand or snow), or even a plasma or a vacuum.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Possible workarounds using existing vocabulary might include words such =
as {Dech}, {vel}, {qat}, {ngaS} and {HaH}. However, after considering =
these alternatives, I still feel that having a canonical word specifically =
for complete submersion/immersion would
be quite handy:</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>* {Dech} - This doesn't really cut it, because an island is surrounded b=
y water, but if it is *submerged* in water then it's not much of an island =
anymore. Likewise, in a desert, you would be surrounded by sand, but you'd =
best avoid being submerged in it.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>* {vel} - This is closer to the intended meaning, but I still don't quit=
e feel it covers the intended meaning. When I've gone for a swim and am com=
ing up on land, I will be covered in water until I've had time to dry. If i=
t is raining, I'll probably remain
covered in water until I've found shelter.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>* {qat} - This comes quite close to the intended meaning, but I'm not su=
re it's quite there. A {qatwI'} may be just a thin layer, which I don't rea=
lly think covers (hehe) the intended meaning of being placed into an enviro=
nment filled with a substance.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>* {ngaS} - This, I feel, comes the closest to encapsulating (hehe) the i=
ntended meaning, and is probably what I'd use for most situations given wha=
t's currently available. However, I feel it sort of suffers from the same i=
ssue as {qat}; a {ngaSwI'} is often
just a (relatively) thin layer, rather than an environment.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>* {HaH} - This makes sense for some possible uses of the word "subm=
erge(d)", but given the definition "marinade, soak, drench",=
it seems the focus is quite specific; you're saturating something with liq=
uid, which doesn't feel right for describing, say, a
spy who is submerging herself for the purpose of remaining undetected, or =
designing an underwater weapon, where soaking is usually a design challenge=
to be overcome.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p> <br>
</p>
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-size:12pt; color:#000000; background-color:#=
FFFFFF; font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font style=3D"font-size:11pt" face=
=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> Felix Malmenbeck<br=
>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 22, 2017 13:19<br>
<b>To:</b> tlhingan-hol@kli.org; tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org; a.appleyard@bt=
internet.com<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh!</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<p>I wonder if maybe we should start flagging our e-mails to make it easier=
for qurgh to filter out the ones that don't contain any new requests to ad=
d to his list. Something like:<br>
<br>
=3D=3D DISCUSSION ONLY: No new requests in this message. =3D=3D<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>> peDwI' may mean:-<br>
> - V:snow VS9:[agent|instrument]<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>There is some conflicting evidence regarding what the subject and object=
of {SIS}, which likely has a syntax similar to {peD}:</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>According to an e-mail by Roger Cheesbro:<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
> All correct. SISlu', altho grammaticlly correct, he didn't particularl=
y<br>
> like. Someone COULD use it but to me it sounds like they skipped scien=
ce<br>
> class and don't know what the subject is. You can also give it an obje=
ct<br>
> and say things like the clouds rained down cats and dogs. ...or someth=
ing<br>
> like that; you get the idea. But when Marc and I went outside and drop=
s<br>
> of water were falling on us, he looked up and simply said "SIS&qu=
ot;.
<p><br>
</p>
<p>This would indicate that a {SISwI'} would actually be a rain cloud, rath=
er than the rain itself, which would be {bIQ SISlu'bogh}.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>However, in paq'batlh (paq'raD, Canto 13, Stanza 6), we have the sentenc=
e {chaHDaq SIStaHvIS 'Iw}, indicating that rainwater may indeed be describe=
d as {SISwI'}.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>It's very possible that {SIS} (and {peD}) have some sort of du=
al syntax, where context and common sense dictate which reading is correct.=
</p>
<p>It's also worth noting that when it comes to rain and snow, the clouds a=
nd the matter that falls from them is really one and the same; just at diff=
erent stages. (Well, at least for the most part; a meteorologist may know o=
f some exceptions to this.)</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>In any event, I fully support the request for a word for snow, whether i=
t's a canonized modification of a known word or a whole new one.<br>
</p>
<p> <br>
</p>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font style=3D"font-size:11pt" face=
=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> tlhIngan-Hol <tl=
hingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Anthony Appleyard <a.a=
ppleyard@btinternet.com><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 22, 2017 07:28<br>
<b>To:</b> tlhingan-hol@kli.org; tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh!</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>peDwI' may mean:-<br>
- V:snow VS9:[agent|instrument]<br>
<br>
Nahuatl does the same: [tonatiuh] =3D "the sun" is an agent of a =
verb root that means "for the sun to shine".<br>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-right:0px; margin-left:15px">----Original messa=
ge----<br>
From : sustel@trimboli.name<br>
Date : 21/03/2017 - 15:08 (GMTST)<br>
To : tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org<br>
Subject : Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh!<br>
<br>
<p>I think you are. Someone asked for the noun for <i>snow,</i> ...</p>
<p><br>
</p>
</blockquote>
<p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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