[109265] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh!
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Jeremy Silver)
Tue Mar 21 17:37:57 2017
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
From: Jeremy Silver <jp.silver@tiscali.co.uk>
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 21:37:49 +0000
In-Reply-To: <0205302c-121a-9897-d09d-7606252b7d29@trimboli.name>
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On Tuesday 21 Mar 2017 14:41:47 SuStel wrote:
> On 3/21/2017 1:56 PM, Jeremy Silver wrote:
> > I too have been having trouble finding a good way to express sand and
> > ash and bribe for example. I think describing ground-up rock confuses
> > people if trying to talk about sand.
>
> Hmm. *nagh pullu'pu'bogh* is actually a pretty decent substitute for
> /sand./
>
True, but it's also an overly complicated term to use for poetic or lyrical use.
*rIy'o'* 'oH be' pong'e'. 'ej naghDaq pullu'pu'bogh mI' ghaH.
> > While on the subject of sand my wish-list extends to:
> >
> > beach (n)
> >
> > coast/shore (n)
>
> We already have /beach:/ *bIQ'a' HeH.* This will often work for /coast/
> or /shore/ as well; the phrase *bIQ'a' HeH* doesn't show us the
> difference between those and /beach. /If I wanted to contrast an actual
> beach and some non-beach shoreline, I might struggle with describing a
> sandy beach shore and a non-sandy beach shore.
We do? Please remind me of the source on this one.
While we're discussing *bIQ'a' HeH*, and to confirm if I'd be using it correctly, how would you all
interpret:
{bIQ'a' 'ev tIng HeH}
>
> > sail (n)
> >
> > oar (n)
> >
> > Don't know if Marc's painted himself into a corner with turning "row
> > your boat" into "propel your ship", but a {vo'wI'} can mean a few things.
>
> Did he translate that? I don't remember this. What is the source?
The vo'wI' bit I inferred from something he's reported to have said, maybe not a translation in-and-
of-itself but an interview about a translation of his - perhaps the anthem?
>
>
> Don't think so, though something about that is nagging me. I'm also
> thinking you might do something with *Don* and maybe *vel**,* but it's
> clumsy.
>
As parallel things don't cross, would that be something based on {DonHa'} or the like?
>
> > Do we have a usual way of expressing the concept of "beyond" like:
> > On the other side of the mountain, there is a prison kind of thing?
> >
> > or Past the crossroads someone did something?
>
> *HuD latlh Dop retlhDaq bIghHa' tu'lu'*/in the area next to the
> mountain's other side there is a prison./ But that doesn't cover phrases
> like /far over the Misty Mountains cold,/ where the thing you're talking
> about isn't immediately next to the other side of the mountain. You
> might play with something like *pa' Hop* /faraway thereabouts. /This
> starts to run into "sometimes inaccurate but never approximate" territory.
Thanks for the response and identifying the reference. Why do I get the feeling I'm not the only
one to try translating that poem?
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<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">On Tuesday 21 Mar 2017 14:41:47 SuStel wrote:</p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> On 3/21/2017 1:56 PM, Jeremy Silver wrote:</p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> > I too have been having trouble finding a good way to express sand and</p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> > ash and bribe for example. I think describing ground-up rock confuses</p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> > people if trying to talk about sand.</p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> </p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> Hmm. *nagh pullu'pu'bogh* is actually a pretty decent substitute for</p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> /sand./</p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> </p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">True, but it's also an overly complicated term to use for poetic or lyrical use.</p>
<p style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; "> </p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">*rIy'o'* 'oH be' pong'e'. 'ej naghDaq pullu'pu'bogh mI' ghaH.</p>
<p style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; "> </p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> > While on the subject of sand my wish-list extends to:</p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> > </p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> > beach (n)</p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> > </p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> > coast/shore (n)</p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> </p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> We already have /beach:/ *bIQ'a' HeH.* This will often work for /coast/</p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> or /shore/ as well; the phrase *bIQ'a' HeH* doesn't show us the</p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> difference between those and /beach. /If I wanted to contrast an actual</p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> beach and some non-beach shoreline, I might struggle with describing a</p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> sandy beach shore and a non-sandy beach shore.</p>
<p style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; "> </p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">We do? Please remind me of the source on this one.</p>
<p style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; "> </p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">While we're discussing *bIQ'a' HeH*, and to confirm if I'd be using it correctly, how would you all interpret:</p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">{bIQ'a' 'ev tIng HeH}</p>
<p style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; "> </p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> </p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> > sail (n)</p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> > </p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> > oar (n)</p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> > </p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> > Don't know if Marc's painted himself into a corner with turning "row</p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> > your boat" into "propel your ship", but a {vo'wI'} can mean a few things.</p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> </p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> Did he translate that? I don't remember this. What is the source?</p>
<p style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; "> </p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">The vo'wI' bit I inferred from something he's reported to have said, maybe not a translation in-and-of-itself but an interview about a translation of his - perhaps the anthem?</p>
<p style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; "> </p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> </p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> </p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> Don't think so, though something about that is nagging me. I'm also</p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> thinking you might do something with *Don* and maybe *vel**,* but it's</p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> clumsy.</p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> </p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">As parallel things don't cross, would that be something based on {DonHa'} or the like?</p>
<p style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; "> </p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> </p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> > Do we have a usual way of expressing the concept of "beyond" like:</p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> > On the other side of the mountain, there is a prison kind of thing?</p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> > </p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> > or Past the crossroads someone did something?</p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> </p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> *HuD latlh Dop retlhDaq bIghHa' tu'lu'*/in the area next to the</p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> mountain's other side there is a prison./ But that doesn't cover phrases</p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> like /far over the Misty Mountains cold,/ where the thing you're talking</p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> about isn't immediately next to the other side of the mountain. You</p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> might play with something like *pa' Hop* /faraway thereabouts. /This</p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> starts to run into "sometimes inaccurate but never approximate" territory.</p>
<p style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; "> </p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">Thanks for the response and identifying the reference. Why do I get the feeling I'm not the only one to try translating that poem?</p>
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