[109262] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh!
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (SuStel)
Tue Mar 21 14:42:21 2017
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From: SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name>
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 14:41:47 -0400
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On 3/21/2017 1:56 PM, Jeremy Silver wrote:
>
> I too have been having trouble finding a good way to express sand and
> ash and bribe for example. I think describing ground-up rock confuses
> people if trying to talk about sand.
>
Hmm. *nagh pullu'pu'bogh* is actually a pretty decent substitute for
/sand./
> While on the subject of sand my wish-list extends to:
>
> beach (n)
>
> coast/shore (n)
>
We already have /beach:/ *bIQ'a' HeH.* This will often work for /coast/
or /shore/ as well; the phrase *bIQ'a' HeH* doesn't show us the
difference between those and /beach. /If I wanted to contrast an actual
beach and some non-beach shoreline, I might struggle with describing a
sandy beach shore and a non-sandy beach shore.
> bay/inlet (n)
>
> harbour (n)
>
> port [as in spaceport, seaport] (n) - some variation of {vergh}
> combined with {veng} maybe?
>
Yes, *vergh veng* is a good substitute for a dedicated word for /port,/
and is very much the sort of word Klingons might have for it. If you
wanted to refer to the actual port in a port city, as opposed to calling
a port city a /port,/ you might call them the *verghmey* (cf.
*mebpa'mey*/hotel/).
> float [on water/in space, assuming it'll differ from {'al}] (v)
>
> be-adrift [on water/in space] (v)
>
> sail (n)
>
> oar (n)
>
> Don't know if Marc's painted himself into a corner with turning "row
> your boat" into "propel your ship", but a {vo'wI'} can mean a few things.
>
Did he translate that? I don't remember this. What is the source?
I wouldn't consider that being painted into a corner. As a song, it may
not have been a precise translation. Maybe the Klingon word for /row/
doesn't fit nicely in the meter.
> That said, sometimes aiming for a phrase like {vo'meH patmey} if you
> want what you are describing to remain neutral to time and technology;
> like you don't want it to matter if the ship has sails, or if it's a
> fully kitted out Brel.
>
I could imagine an oar being called a *vo'meH jan raQlu'bogh*/propulsion
device which one manipulates by hand./
> Recently I too needed something for Skull, {nach Hom} seemed to work
> OK but had too many syllables at the time.
>
> We have a word for crossing/traversing something, but I've wanted to
> express things crossing like in an x or + shape before now. Do we have
> such a construction?
>
Don't think so, though something about that is nagging me. I'm also
thinking you might do something with *Don* and maybe *vel**,* but it's
clumsy.
> I'd also vote for a noun for snow as in the past using something like
> {chuch qutmey} seemed a bit complicated.
>
> Consider there to be another vote for *tide (n)* here too, had to make
> do with something like big wave recently. Though now I think about it
> some way of combining {maS} and {yu'egh} might work. Can you do
> something like {maSmo' yu'egh}?
>
That would violate the rule in TKD 3.4: "When the noun-noun construction
is used, only the second noun can take syntactic suffixes (Type 5)." You
might go with something like *yu'egh chenmoHbogh maS*/wave which the
moon forms,/ or just *maS yu'egh* /moon wave./ I don't like it. Tides
aren't reeeaaallly a wave; I might look at something having to do with
*bIQ'a' 'Iv*/ocean's altitude/ or something like that.
> Do we have a usual way of expressing the concept of "beyond" like:
>
> On the other side of the mountain, there is a prison kind of thing?
>
> or Past the crossroads someone did something?
>
*HuD latlh Dop retlhDaq bIghHa' tu'lu'*/in the area next to the
mountain's other side there is a prison./ But that doesn't cover phrases
like /far over the Misty Mountains cold,/ where the thing you're talking
about isn't immediately next to the other side of the mountain. You
might play with something like *pa' Hop* /faraway thereabouts. /This
starts to run into "sometimes inaccurate but never approximate" territory.
--
SuStel
http://trimboli.name
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/21/2017 1:56 PM, Jeremy Silver
wrote:<br>
</div>
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type="cite">
<meta name="qrichtext" content="1">
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<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">I too have been having trouble finding a good way to express sand and ash and bribe for example. I think describing ground-up rock confuses people if trying to talk about sand.</p>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>Hmm. <b>nagh pullu'pu'bogh</b> is actually a pretty decent substitute for <i>sand.</i>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:5096814.nAfa8PAAYJ@localhost.localdomain"
type="cite">
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">While on the subject of sand my wish-list extends to:</p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">beach (n)</p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">coast/shore (n)</p>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>We already have <i>beach:</i> <b>bIQ'a' HeH.</b> This will often work for <i>coast</i> or <i>shore</i> as well; the phrase <b>bIQ'a' HeH</b> doesn't show us the difference between those and <i>beach. </i>If I wanted to contrast an actual beach and some non-beach shoreline, I might struggle with describing a sandy beach shore and a non-sandy beach shore.
</p>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:5096814.nAfa8PAAYJ@localhost.localdomain"
type="cite">
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">bay/inlet (n)</p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">harbour (n)</p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">port [as in spaceport, seaport] (n) - some variation of {vergh} combined with {veng} maybe?</p>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes, <b>vergh veng</b> is a good substitute for a dedicated word
for <i>port,</i> and is very much the sort of word Klingons might
have for it. If you wanted to refer to the actual port in a port
city, as opposed to calling a port city a <i>port,</i> you might
call them the <b>verghmey</b> (cf. <b>mebpa'mey</b><i> hotel</i>).<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:5096814.nAfa8PAAYJ@localhost.localdomain"
type="cite">
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">float [on water/in space, assuming it'll differ from {'al}] (v)</p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">be-adrift [on water/in space] (v)</p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">sail (n)</p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">oar (n)</p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">Don't know if Marc's painted himself into a corner with turning "row your boat" into "propel your ship", but a {vo'wI'} can mean a few things.</p>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>Did he translate that? I don't remember this. What is the source?</p>
<p>I wouldn't consider that being painted into a corner. As a song, it may not have been a precise translation. Maybe the Klingon word for <i>row</i> doesn't fit nicely in the meter.
</p>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:5096814.nAfa8PAAYJ@localhost.localdomain"
type="cite">
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">That said, sometimes aiming for a phrase like {vo'meH patmey} if you want what you are describing to remain neutral to time and technology; like you don't want it to matter if the ship has sails, or if it's a fully kitted out Brel.</p>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>I could imagine an oar being called a <b>vo'meH jan raQlu'bogh</b><i> propulsion device which one manipulates by hand.</i>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:5096814.nAfa8PAAYJ@localhost.localdomain"
type="cite">
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">Recently I too needed something for Skull, {nach Hom} seemed to work OK but had too many syllables at the time.</p>
<p style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; "> </p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">We have a word for crossing/traversing something, but I've wanted to express things crossing like in an x or + shape before now. Do we have such a construction?</p>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>Don't think so, though something about that is nagging me. I'm also thinking you might do something with <b>Don</b> and maybe <b>vel</b><b>,</b> but it's clumsy.
</p>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:5096814.nAfa8PAAYJ@localhost.localdomain"
type="cite">
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;"> I'd also vote for a noun for snow as in the past using something like {chuch qutmey} seemed a bit complicated.</p>
<p style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; "> </p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">Consider there to be another vote for *tide (n)* here too, had to make do with something like big wave recently. Though now I think about it some way of combining {maS} and {yu'egh} might work. Can you do something like {maSmo' yu'egh}?</p>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>That would violate the rule in TKD 3.4: "When the noun-noun construction is used, only the second noun can take syntactic suffixes (Type 5)." You might go with something like <b>yu'egh chenmoHbogh maS</b><i> wave which the moon forms,</i> or just <b>maS yu'egh</b> <i>moon wave.</i> I don't like it. Tides aren't reeeaaallly a wave; I might look at something having to do with <b>bIQ'a' 'Iv</b><i> ocean's altitude</i> or something like that.</p>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:5096814.nAfa8PAAYJ@localhost.localdomain"
type="cite">
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;"> Do we have a usual way of expressing the concept of "beyond" like:</p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">On the other side of the mountain, there is a prison kind of thing?</p>
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">or Past the crossroads someone did something?
</p>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p><b>HuD latlh Dop retlhDaq bIghHa' tu'lu'</b><i> in the area next to the mountain's other side there is a prison.</i> But that doesn't cover phrases like <i>far over the Misty Mountains cold,</i> where the thing you're talking about isn't immediately next to the other side of the mountain. You might play with something like <b>pa' Hop</b> <i>faraway thereabouts. </i>This starts to run into "sometimes inaccurate but never approximate" territory.
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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